Can you still appeal an alleged red light violation even if already pleaded guilty? Options

[spanishfrog]

Hi folks

I'm seeking advice on behalf of my girlfriend who has been hit with a £530 fine for allegedly violating an automatic red light signal on a busy A road. She never received photographic evidence, nor had either of us have recollection/knowledge of the offence. However, she still pleaded guilty (by post - NOT in court!), expecting a reduced fine, as was promised on the police letter, certainly not for £530! Now she's regretting it and wondering whether she still has any options for appeal? Or indeed if it's even worth it?

Here's the full story:

In February, my girlfriend received a letter from the police alleging the following offence: "Failure to comply with red traffic signal / lane closure light signals" on a major A road.

This letter initially asked her to identify the driver. As per the time of the offence (a busy Friday evening), my girlfriend was driving and I was a front seat passenger. Initially, we were both very confused by the wording of the offence (was it for driving through a red light or driving into a closed lane by accident?) and certainly neither of us had recollection of jumping a red light. The location of the alleged incident is a busy A road so you'd have thought you'd have noticed.

My girlfriend returned the enclosed form to the police, identifying herself as the driver.

A few days later, she received another letter from the police asking her to plead guilty or not guilty to the offence. The letter stated that should she plead guilty she'd receive a discount to whatever fine would be levied at her (I vaguely recall the discount being 30% but I'm not sure). She was given 21 days to return the form with her plea otherwise she would be threatened with court action. I also vaguely recall that the letter stated that my gf had driven through the red light some 4 seconds after it had turned red (so not like you're trying to beat an amber).

At this point we were still unsure what to do. We weren't disputing that she hadn't committed an offence, merely that neither of us had any recollection of it.

I spoke to friends who told us that we needed to request photographic evidence from the police. By the time my girlfriend phoned the police to request evidence, 14 days of the deadline had already elapsed. The police said something along the lines of "well, we can send you evidence but you're running out of time".

At this point, my girlfriend decided to swallow it, plead guilty and pay the fine, believing that the fine would be a maximum of £100.

Today, she received a letter from the magistrate's court, fining her a massive £530 for the offence - basically 5 x times what she expected.

So that's the long and short of it. She's pleaded guilty to a red light traffic violation of what she has no recollection of ever committing, nor for which she has been shown any evidence. Given the unexpected severity of the fine, she is regretting pleading guilty and not pressing for the photographic evidence sooner.

As I mentioned earlier, we're not necessarily disputing whether or not she's committed the offence - if she was caught on camera, then she must have right? Just that we didn't know she had done what was alleged of her, which strikes me as really odd - I mean, you'd know if you went through a red light, right? Or has she done something else that we're not even sure was an offence?

Is there indeed anything she can do? And is there any possibility that the charge could be a mistake?

Hope that's enough information guys. I don't have all the letters in front of me so apologies if I've missed anything crucial.

Thanks!


This post has been edited by spanishfrog: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 - 18:01

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[StuartBu]

Looks like there are chunks of this story missing ...Can you show a list of what paperwork she got over the piece and what they were for and when . Did it start with a form requesting details of who was driving at the time of the offence -what happened after that ?

[Jlc]

For some reason it went to court and any fixed penalty offer was lost.

If a guilty plea was submitted then only the sentence can be appealed.

Assuming normally sentencing was followed (they can sentence at fixed penalty equivalent and no costs under certain circumstances) then a fine around 1 week earnings (discounted by 33%), costs of £85 and surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30).

Did she submit a statement of means (MC100)? That level of fine indicates around £600/week was submitted.

In hindsight, the time to request photo’s is before the driver nomination. Red light camera’s are very reliable - so unless there is an actual malfunction uncovered affecting many then there’s little recourse. After all, she had the opportunity to plead not guilty for evidence disclosure.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 - 17:03

[The Rookie]

Red light cameras are very accurate, the only time we’ve seen someone with a viable defence is where there are direction specific lanes and they have gone over the sensors in the wrong lanes.

Did she pay the £100 fine and supply her driving licence? If not it would always end in court, the £100 would be refunded if it was paid.

There is so much missing from your story it would require a lot of speculation to make any sense of it, so perhaps it’s worth getting it straight and reposting it.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 - 18:52

[Fredd]

a oo5 of speculation

WTF is one of those?

[spanishfrog]

Thanks for all the replies so far folks. As requested, here's the full story:

In February, my girlfriend received a letter from the police alleging the following offence: "Failure to comply with red traffic signal / lane closure light signals" on a major A road.

This letter initially asked her to identify the driver. As per the time of the offence (a busy Friday evening), my girlfriend was driving and I was a front seat passenger. Initially, we were both very confused by the wording of the offence (was it for driving through a red light or driving into a closed lane by accident?) and certainly neither of us had recollection of jumping a red light. The location of the alleged incident is a busy A road so you'd have thought you'd have noticed.

My girlfriend returned the enclosed form to the police, identifying herself as the driver.

A few days later, she received another letter from the police asking her to plead guilty or not guilty to the offence. The letter stated that should she plead guilty she'd receive a discount to whatever fine would be levied at her (I vaguely recall the discount being 30% but I'm not sure). She was given 21 days to return the form with her plea otherwise she would be threatened with court action. I also vaguely recall that the letter stated that my gf had driven through the red light some 4 seconds after it had turned red (so not like you're trying to beat an amber).

At this point we were still unsure what to do. We weren't disputing that she hadn't committed an offence, merely that neither of us had any recollection of it.

I spoke to friends who told us that we needed to request photographic evidence from the police. By the time my girlfriend phoned the police to request evidence, 14 days of the deadline had already elapsed. The police said something along the lines of "well, we can send you evidence but you're running out of time".

At this point, my girlfriend decided to swallow it, plead guilty and pay the fine, believing that the fine would be a maximum of £100.

Today, she received a letter from the magistrate's court, fining her a massive £530 for the offence - basically 5 x times what she expected.

So that's the long and short of it. She's pleaded guilty to a red light traffic violation of what she has no recollection of ever committing, nor for which she has been shown any evidence. Given the unexpected severity of the fine, she is regretting pleading guilty and not pressing for the photographic evidence sooner.

As I mentioned earlier, we're not necessarily disputing whether or not she's committed the offence - if she was caught on camera, then she must have right? Just that we didn't know she had done what was alleged of her, which strikes me as really odd - I mean, you'd know if you went through a red light, right? Or has she done something else that we're not even sure was an offence?

Is there indeed anything she can do? And is there any possibility that the charge could be a mistake?

Hope that's enough information guys. I don't have all the letters in front of me so apologies if I've missed anything crucial.

Thanks!

This post has been edited by spanishfrog: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 - 17:54

[notmeatloaf]

Basically you need to get the letters and come back, without being rude.

If the deadline on the letter was 21 days then it was likely court documents but they are normally very clearly from a court, not the police. The police would be unlikely to be involved with evidence at that stage.

Also it is likely you filled out a form about your income and outgoings to get that fine.

But we really need to see where the jump from a S172 request to name a driver to a court case happened. It would be very very unlikely there was not some additional step that has been missed.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 - 18:03

[spanishfrog]

Looks like there are chunks of this story missing ...Can you show a list of what paperwork she got over the piece and what they were for and when . Did it start with a form requesting details of who was driving at the time of the offence -what happened after that ?

Thanks StuartBu. I've edited my original post, which I hope has enough of the full story, as well as added a more detailed reply.

Basically you need to get the letters and come back, without being rude.

If the deadline on the letter was 21 days then it was likely court documents but they are normally very clearly from a court, not the police. The police would be unlikely to be involved with evidence at that stage.

Also it is likely you filled out a form about your income and outgoings to get that fine.

But we really need to see where the jump from a S172 request to name a driver to a court case happened. It would be very very unlikely there was not some additional step that has been missed.

Okay, thanks. My girlfriend isn't home yet but when she is, I'll press her to locate the letters and post details.

She thought she returned them all, as requested, but I can't believe that included the covering letter.

[southpaw82]

Realistically, if she’s pleaded guilty then there is very little she can do other than appeal against sentence. The normal sentence has been set out in post 3 - a fine of a weeks earnings, discounted by 1/3 for a guilty plea. Don’t make the mistake of including costs or surcharge in the "fine" because otherwise your calculations will be wrong. If you do the calculations using her actual weekly take home pay (note, not disposable income after bills, just take home pay as it appears on her pay slip) and it’s significantly less than the fine that has been imposed it may well be worth appealing.

There may be grounds to argue that she should be sentenced at the fixed penalty level - how far into the red light was she?

Appeal can be by way of the Crown Court - she has 21 days from sentencing to do this, or by application to the magistrates to re-open her case - has to be done soon.

Not sure why people want to see your documents, to be honest.

This post has been edited by southpaw82: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 - 18:46

[Jlc]

There may be grounds to argue that she should be sentenced at the fixed penalty level - how far into the red light was she?

4 seconds, thus the lack of CoFP.

If you do the calculations using her actual weekly take home pay (note, not disposable income after bills, just take home pay as it appears on her pay slip) and it’s significantly less than the fine that has been imposed it may well be worth appealing.

^ This.

Not sure why people want to see your documents, to be honest.

Quite.

In February, my girlfriend received a letter from the police alleging the following offence: "Failure to comply with red traffic signal / lane closure light signals" on a major A road.

Which road/junction was it? (Out of curiosity)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 - 18:56

[The Rookie]

It sounds like she was too far into red for a fixed penalty and what she received next was a Single Justice Procedure Notice which does come from the Police but results in a court sentencing.

[spanishfrog]

Thanks guys. I will dig out the letters tomorrow and find the exact specifics.

She did say that the letter alleged she was 4 seconds into the red though. The traffic lights were on a busy junction on a Friday evening. If she'd jumped the lights, then she would've caused a crash or at least a near incident. There's just no way neither of us would have not noticed her doing that. And she's a careful driver, too.

I was alarmed that she didn't request the photographic evidence at the time but she was under a lot of stress at work and didn't want the added stress of this hanging over her head, so thought she'd just pay it. But I think it's spectacularly backfired. The earnings thing sucks because she's massively in debt, and paying back a huge student loan.

It's also knocked both our confidences, to be honest. Road stuff confuses the hell out of me, especially after just returning to driving after such a long break (10+ years).

Which road/junction was it? (Out of curiosity)

A127 in Essex

[BaggieBoy]

A127 in Essex

What junction?

[The Rookie]

She did say that the letter alleged she was 4 seconds into the red though.

That explains no offer of a fixed penalty, its also possible (given your other comments) that she didn't cross the junction but just crossed the stop line far enough to trigger the camera (quite a common bad practice), that would mean she was guilty but could have been used to mitigate the sentence somewhat compared to fully crossing the junction.

[NewJudge]

I was alarmed that she didn't request the photographic evidence at the time...

Just for future reference you are not entitled to see any evidence unless and until the matter goes to court. You may ask for photographs "to help identify the driver" (and such photographs rarely do that) but if you start demanding evidence you may find (depending on your wording and the interpretation placed on it by the camera people) that the matter skips any course or fixed penalty offers and goes straight to a prosecution.

[spanishfrog]

She did say that the letter alleged she was 4 seconds into the red though.

That explains no offer of a fixed penalty, its also possible (given your other comments) that she didn't cross the junction but just crossed the stop line far enough to trigger the camera (quite a common bad practice), that would mean she was guilty but could have been used to mitigate the sentence somewhat compared to fully crossing the junction.

Thanks for this. If we're to appeal the sentencing (size of the fine), would this be our main argument for doing so? And if so, would this then mean that the photographic evidence will need to be acquired?

And is going over the stop line by too much distance without actually jumping the red light still an offence, or a flaw of the cameras?

Just for future reference you are not entitled to see any evidence unless and until the matter goes to court. You may ask for photographs "to help identify the driver" (and such photographs rarely do that) but if you start demanding evidence you may find (depending on your wording and the interpretation placed on it by the camera people) that the matter skips any course or fixed penalty offers and goes straight to a prosecution.

Thanks. That was very much how I originally understood it, based upon the wording of the first letter that my gf received through the post (the one notifying her of a violation and requesting to identify the driver).

However, when I asked one friend who works with the government, they said: "Your friend is entitled to request the evidence under both the Civil Proceedings rules, and through submitting a Subject Access Request for their own data."

I do find the system all very confusing, which is mostly why my girlfriend panicked.

This post has been edited by spanishfrog: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 08:28

[122basy]

She did say that the letter alleged she was 4 seconds into the red though.

That explains no offer of a fixed penalty, its also possible (given your other comments) that she didn't cross the junction but just crossed the stop line far enough to trigger the camera (quite a common bad practice), that would mean she was guilty but could have been used to mitigate the sentence somewhat compared to fully crossing the junction.

The red light cameras on the A127 have a significant minimum speed before they trigger so there is no question of “creeping over the stop line”. 4 seconds into red and passing over the stop line quick enough to trigger the red light Camera isn’t going to be a FPN offence. Confused and stressed drivers doing this sort of thing may need to have it brought to their attention perhaps.
I don’t think your mitigation suggestion is helpful.

[spanishfrog]

For some reason it went to court and any fixed penalty offer was lost.

If a guilty plea was submitted then only the sentence can be appealed.

Assuming normally sentencing was followed (they can sentence at fixed penalty equivalent and no costs under certain circumstances) then a fine around 1 week earnings (discounted by 33%), costs of £85 and surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30).

Did she submit a statement of means (MC100)? That level of fine indicates around £600/week was submitted.

In hindsight, the time to request photo’s is before the driver nomination. Red light camera’s are very reliable - so unless there is an actual malfunction uncovered affecting many then there’s little recourse. After all, she had the opportunity to plead not guilty for evidence disclosure.

Thanks for this post. This explains the process a lot.

The red light cameras on the A127 have a significant minimum speed before they trigger so there is no question of “creeping over the stop line”. 4 seconds into red and passing over the stop line quick enough to trigger the red light Camera isn’t going to be a FPN offence. Confused and stressed drivers doing this sort of thing may need to have it brought to their attention perhaps.
I don’t think your mitigation suggestion is helpful.

Thanks. Apologies for my slowness, but what was my mitigation suggestion - pleading for a reduced sentence because she went over the line without triggering it?

Must admit, we're still both very confused. We were both in the car at the time of the alleged offence and neither of us have any recollection or knowledge of jumping a red light, especially on such a busy A road.

My gf pleaded guilty because she couldn't possibly doubt a camera and she didn't want the stress of a potential court appearance hanging over her.

In many ways, it's not the size of the fine that is upsetting us both, but the actual fact that we don't know what happened - that we apparently jumped a red light on a busy road without even realising. If we could get to the bottom of it then maybe we could both understand and learn to be more careful in the future. At present, it's only served to make us more confused on the roads.

[Jlc]

Thanks for this. If we're to appeal the sentencing (size of the fine), would this be our main argument for doing so? And if so, would this then mean that the photographic evidence will need to be acquired?

The offence was pleaded guilty to. The prosecution may have the pictures on file but don't need to show them.

However, when I asked one friend who works with the government, they said: "Your friend is entitled to request the evidence under both the Civil Proceedings rules, and through submitting a Subject Access Request for their own data."

Civil? Criminal Procedure Rules - but that would apply if she had plead not guilty. A SAR (under Data Protection Act) would not apply either.

[peterguk]

My gf pleaded guilty because she couldn't possibly doubt a camera and she didn't want the stress of a potential court appearance hanging over her.

Both reasonable reasons for choosing to plead guilty. She made her decision, and the question of guilt, innocence, evidence, photos etc is history.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 09:40