Bus Lane contravention |
Bus Lane contravention |
Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 18:48
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 13 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,424 |
OK... please bear with me as I have to word this carefully.
I have received today a Bus Lane Penalty Charge Notice from Bedford Borough. It identifies a vehicle as being in a bus lane. There are two photos. One is a black solid square with what appears to be a dim headlamp and a vehicle's forward registration number plate on it; matching the vehicle identified in the PCN. There is no vehicle or anything else in this pic. At the bottom of the pic is some text which appears to be a date and time, the name of the road the alleged contravention took place on, and the words "bus lane". The right hand photo shows a section of a Bedford street, and several vehicles; one of which is in the bus lane. The photo is of very poor resolution and the vehicles in it cannot be identified. Is there anything I can do which would remove the need for me to pay this PCN? Please feel free to ask me for more info or to shout at me for doing something wrong. Thanks Here's the PCN with some key details removed. This post has been edited by stinkblender: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 18:48 |
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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 18:48
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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 18:59
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 13 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,424 |
p.s. the video footage shows an unidentified vehicle using the bus lane. It clearly shows the colour and body type of the vehicle; however the registration mark cannot be read and the model would be very difficult to identify.
The vehicle uses the bus lane to avoid the traffic jam in the main driving lane and then turn left; i.e. it simply seeks to "extend" the "you can turn left here" section of the bus lane. This post has been edited by stinkblender: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 19:01 |
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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 19:16
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
The owner of the vehicle identified is liable for the penalty, you can argue it was not yours, but I wouldn't hold out much hope. The dark photo is infra red to focus on the reg of the vehicle identified.
and you seem to know what the driver did and why. Post the rest of the PCN so we can check it for flaws -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 20:05
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Show us the rest of the PCN so we can check for errors. Also give us a link to the location on Google Street View so we can check if the signs are compliant.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 20:20
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#5
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Core order here:-
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...dford/BF178.pdf There are two Ampthill Road bus lanes. One in Bedford the other in Elstow. Since the PCN does not specify which one -- have we got vague locus? Mick |
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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 20:28
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,265 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
Sister got one a while back.
There's a wording flaw somewhere - can't remember. -------------------- |
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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 20:30
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Core order here:- https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...dford/BF178.pdf There are two Ampthill Road bus lanes. One in Bedford the other in Elstow. Since the PCN does not specify which one -- have we got vague locus? Mick Quite possible, but stinkblender needs to re-upload the PCN with the location visible. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 20:59
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 13 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,424 |
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1218454,-0....6384!8i8192
I'll photo the rest of the PCN in a bit... watching Vikings BTW - the video makes clear the driver's intentions because it shows the actions of the vehicle. |
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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 21:13
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Signage looks clear, driver's intentions are irrelevant. You can tell us if you're the driver, for council PCNs there's no need to conceal the identity of the driver as the owner is liable, no matter who was driving. Vague location could be a winner if there are two roads with the same name, and both with bus lanes, inside the jurisdiction of the enforcement authority.
This post has been edited by cp8759: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 21:14 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 21:43
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,915 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
The video is the sole evidence of the alleged contravention so in order to give meaningful advice, you need to get it posted here. One of the people here knows how to do this if you don't. If you take the matter to adjudication, that is what the adjudicator will look at to make a decision. Generally TPT follow a 20 metre rule being a maximum distance for a de minimis intrusion, but it also depends on the circumstances. You say you jumped the queue in order to turn left. If this shows in the video, I doubt an adjudicator will allow an appeal.
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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 21:47
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 13 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,424 |
With all the comments made (especially the last one) I see no point in continuing to waste your time; thank you for that given so far.
I'll just pay it |
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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 22:21
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,915 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 23:03
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
With all the comments made (especially the last one) I see no point in continuing to waste your time; thank you for that given so far. I'll just pay it That's unnecessary - if the location of the PCN is ambiguous (as it appears to be), the PCN will have to be cancelled, no matter how banged-to-rights the contravention may be. Post all of the PCN so we can check properly. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 18:21
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 13 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,424 |
OK here's the whole thing... it only ever says "Ampthill Road" without amplification or explanation.
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Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 22:14
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Well I've been up and down the part of Ampthill Road that falls within the parish of Elstow (see map below) and cannot for the life of me find a bus lane anywhere along it:
Still, the TRO says there's two bus lanes and we don't know which one they refer to. Draft reps: -------------- Dear Sir or Madam, I challenge the penalty charge notice on the basis that the amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case. The PCN has been issued by Bedford Borough Council and it alleges that a contravention has taken place in "Ampthill Road", the location is not particularised further. According to the Bedford Borough Council (Bus Lanes and Bus Only Streets, The Borough of Bedford) Consolidation Order 2014 there are two roads named Ampthill Road that fall within the enforcement authority's jurisdiction where a bus lane exists, one is on Bedford itself while the other is in the village of Elstow. The PCN does not specify in which town the contravention is alleged to have taken place. In Matthew Kelly v London Borough of Harrow (case reference 216029138A) the tribunal found as follows: "Mr Kelly has appeared in person with his son, Mr Sean Kelly. This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being in a bus lane in Northolt Road Northbound at 12.49pm on 12 March 2016. Mr Kelly appeals because he says that the PCN does not sufficiently identify the location of the alleged contravention. His evidence shows that there are 5 camera enforcement locations in Northolt Road. Although the Council says in its case summary that the location is Northolt Road at the junction with Shaftesbury Avenue, this is not clear from the PCN. The PCN must state the grounds on which the Council believe that the penalty charge is payable. Those grounds must be expressed in terms that allow the recipient of the PCN to know not just the nature of the alleged contravention but exactly where it is said to have occurred. I agree with Mr Kelly that this PCN did not sufficiently identify the location of the alleged contravention and I allow the appeal for this reason." The PCN served by the enforcement authority does not specify the exact location of the alleged contravention, in fact it does not even specify which town the contravention is alleged to have occurred. It follows that the PCN does not comply with regulation 8(5)(с) of The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005, and in such circumstances the only penalty that may be demanded is nil. This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 17:47 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 12:18
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 13 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,424 |
Thank you - I really appreciate this.
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Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 14:19
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
So this is the other bus lane on Ampthill Road: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.1137205,-...33;8i6656?hl=en
As per pages 18 and 19 of the full order here: https://www.scribd.com/document/395948634/B...tion-Order-2014 (grid reference I37 and I38) -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 14:30
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 13 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,424 |
Hi guys
sorry it's been so long I submitted my representations as per the post above and have had zero response. Today I received a Charge Certificate upping the payment required to £90. No mention of my represenations. Any pearls of wisdom please? p.s. My representations were posted on (I believe) 17 Dec - so are deemed received according to CPR on 19th Dec... If they don't therefore respond to my representations by 14th Feb, the PCN is cancelled... |
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Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 14:37
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
How did you send reps? any confirmation?
No problem to get this reset. you just need to wait for the next document the order for recovery this will allow you to make a statutory declaration to the effect that you made representations and did not receive a reply. This will revoke the CC the council must then refer to the adjudicator for direction which will most likely be an appeal. If you have proof of the representation then the CC can be shown to be delivered before they are allowed to and is an unlawful demand for money and can win an appeal on its own -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 14:51
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 13 Dec 2018 Member No.: 101,424 |
I didn't think to get proof of posting so sadly no confirmation. Also I appear (God knows how) to have lost the text I put into it FFS.
Anyway; if I remember right, CPR is clear that it's sufficient for me to state that I sent it as there is no reason to disbelieve me. Fingers crossed? |
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