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No particulars of claim to follow?, Claim Form from Civil Encroachment Limited (CEL)
nyk24
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 19:11
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Hi there folks just wondering has anyone received from CEL a claim form which lists the particulars of claim but doesn't say specifically "particulars of claim to follow within the next 14 days."

The reason I ask this is because I read that they had changed from POC to POC to follow with all their court claims.

Is this a mistake on their part with my case? Is it another contrick of theirs to see my full defence so they can then blatantly ignore court procedures and send in fuller particulars of claim later? Or lastly is it because they actually have scant information for their claim?

Here is what it says:

Particulars of Claim

Claim for monies relating to a parking charge for parking in a private car park managed by the Claimant in breach of the terms + conditions (T+Cs). Drivers are allowed to park in accordance with T+C's of use. ANPR cameras and/or manual patrols are used to monitor vehicles entering and exiting the site. Debt + damages claimed the sum of 236.00
Violation date: 14/02/2017
Time in: 20:00 Time out: 22:42
PCN ref: xxxxxxxxxxxx
Car registration no: xxxxxxxxxxxx Car park:- xxxxxxxxxxxx

Total due- 236.00
(Ref:www.ce-service.co.uk or Tel:01158225020)
The Claimant claims the sum of 254.93 for monies relating to a parking charge per above including 18.93 interest pursuant to S.69 of the County Courts Act 1984
Rate 8.00% pa from dates above to- 15/02/18
Same rate to judgement or (sooner) payment
Daily rate to judgement- 0.05
Total debt and interest due- 254.93


Judging by the lack of "£" signs can I assume that the amount could be say potatoes or pennies? hehe

I have heard that there is a 1000 character limit on what you can put in the POC field? If so that might explain the lack of "£" signs and slight punctuation errors/omissions.

They mention the use of ANPR and/or manual patrols are used to monitor vehicles entering and leaving. My PCN was given via a ANPR camera so that leads me to believe they don't know how the PCN was issued to me.

Basically what I'm trying to say in a long winded kind of way (sorry) - should I file my defence now confident that this is all they have or should I file an AoS instead?

Any input would be greatly appreciated on this.

P.S I will put up my full defence when I know what to do about this POC matters. Thanks in advance smile.gif
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post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 19:11
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Redivi
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 19:31
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If CEL is going to send further particulars, it must do so within 14 days of the claim

What it actually does is send them a few days outside the deadline but put a fake date on them
If more details do arrive, keep the envelope

My belief is that it's a deliberate attempt to engineer default judgments

When further particulars are promised, defendants aren't supposed to acknowledge service until they've arrived
There's a fault with the Moneyclaim system, however, that it awards a default judgment if there's no acknowledgement of service or defence submitted within 14 days
It can be set aside as a court error but involves time and expense so defendants pay up

It's foolish to rush into submitting a defence

What you can do, however, is submit the acknowledgement of service now and the defence a couple of days after the deadline for any further particulars to arrive

You can then make the first point of your defence that CEL has failed to disclose any details or cause of action and you request that the court strikes out the claim as in breach of CPR 16.4

See other threads for examples of full CEL defences
There are also examples on the Moneysavingexpert site
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kommando
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 19:41
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Redivi +1, if you wait for the particulars they get a default judgement, CEL are tricky and at one time used to tell defendants they had filed a discontinuance so the defendant did not attend and CEL won by default. No discontinuance had been filed, never trust any communication from CEL, always ring the court to confirm.

This post has been edited by kommando: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 19:44
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The Slithy Tove
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 07:36
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Just to show what a bunch of cheats they are, just look at that interest charge. They have added a year or so's interest on the whole £236 from February last year. Yet there is no way you (allegedly) owed them that much on 14/02/17. The fact that the whole £236 is artificially inflated anyway is another matter, which you will also challenge.
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Redivi
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 09:03
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Yes

The additional charges are added much later in the letter chain

Also include in the defence that no debt could possibly have existed on 14th February
The Parking Notice wasn't issued until about two weeks later and allowed four weeks to pay

CEL could not have any cause of action until six weeks after the date they claim
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nyk24
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 15:19
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Thanks everyone for the advice.

I will send off the AoS and then send my defence 14 days after the issue date that's on the claim form?

Hopefully CEL won't have anymore POC to send me but we shall see.

I will keep you guys posted and when I have my drafted defence I will put that up as a new thread.

Thanks again everyone smile.gif
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 15:30
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No, the AoS gives you 33 days from issue date for the court to recieve it
You will print, sign and scan to PDF, so you can email it to them.

NEVER a new thread Obviously, if you think about it, a new thread means we know nothing about it.
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Ixworth
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 17:01
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QUOTE (nyk24 @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 15:19) *
Thanks everyone for the advice.

I will send off the AoS and then send my defence 14 days after the issue date that's on the claim form?

Hopefully CEL won't have anymore POC to send me but we shall see.

I will keep you guys posted and when I have my drafted defence I will put that up as a new thread.

Thanks again everyone smile.gif


As I understand it, just as you only have one chance to submit a defence, they only have one chance to submit PoC unless they explicitly state that Further PoC are to follow (see CPR 16.2(2)). Otherwise how would you know when you had to submit your defence.

I think they are being a little tricky as they know we have been waiting for the further PoC to arrive before submitting our defences. If we wait for these to arrive could we be sailing close to automatic judgement timescales perhaps?
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ostell
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 17:33
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After the acknowledgement of claim then you have 33 days from the date of issue to get your defence to the court. Your defence will be, if you don't get the PoC, is that there is noting to defend. There is not a prize for getting your defence in early and if you do it gives CEL a chance to modify their PoC to suit.
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Redivi
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 17:57
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It's a balancing act

When defendants complain to Moneyclaim that the detailed particulars weren't received, they're dismissed on the grounds that that they've still managed to write a defence

A problem is that Moneyclaim doesn't employ any legally qualified staff so they can't strike out claims, only late defences because they can refer to the calendar

My approach is to request a strike out for no cause of action or an order for further particulars, but still submit a detailed defence and state that it's based on previous correspondence
Otherwise, if the court doesn't order the further particulars, the opportunity to include the defence points is lost
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