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Zapped by gatso on a NSL road in an HGV at 48 MPH
Mr-Jinx
post Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 12:21
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Cheshire
Date of the offence: - September 2006
Date of the NIP: - 11 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 13 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A5011 LINLEY LANE,ALSAGER>>ALSAGER TOWN CENTRE
Was the NIP addressed to you? - No
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - NK
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Im the regular driver of the vehicle
How many current points do you have? - 6
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - On a 60 MPH road I approached area on long downwards gradient, rounded corner and saw Gaso camera, As I was driving an HGV an emergency braking manouve would have been dangerous so I passed the Gatso at 48MPH. The speed linit for HGVs on single carriage ways is 40, I had been doing 40 but the on the gradual downhill gradient I had picked up speed. It was nearly 2 AM and conditions were good.

This post has been edited by Mr-Jinx: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 12:23
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post Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 12:21
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The Rookie
post Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 13:38
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I'm sure the wizard will have suggested sending the PACE witness statement - so thats what I would suggest as there is nothing to suggest a better route at this time.

Simon


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Roblynmouth
post Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 15:26
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The real question you should be asking is how do your [or inded anybody] know what that the speed limit was?

A couple of points to consider with any NIP;

1. Ask for a copy of the Traffic Rgulation Order [TRO], as this is the means by which a speed limit is legal, no TRO no speed limit. The copy they send you should show the seal, again no seal no legality. Check the distances and location of the order. If the Scammers are going to rely on a restricted road defence [30mph and street lights] then you need to check that all the lamp columns are 187metres apart, any more than that [even one set, and one Cm] means that the 30 mph restriction is not correct. However not all 30mph limits rely on street lamps, so don’t assume, ask for the TRO. One final thing if the council rely on street lamps and there are repeater signs on the road then the restriction is incorrect and they need to have a TRO
2. Under Young V Day, this is an example of a good description of a NIP location;
M9 Edinburgh/Perth Motorway, Craigforth District of Stirling at a part near to the A84 Overbridge,
So is this one;
M4 Near Tolls Plaza Rogiet Monmouthshire W/B,
However this is not;
A449 LLANDENNY
Under Young V Day the Divisional Court [a higher court [House of Lords] so therefore binding on the magistrates court] refused to set aside a decision by the justices that a notice of intended prosecution under the Road Traffic Act 1930 [s. 21] was insufficiently particular where it stated the place of the offence of dangerous driving. Further details can be found [http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=8795]. Whilst the case is about not misleading the defendant, if you don’t live there then how can you be expected to know where they are talking about if the location isn’t precise? Moreover Lord Chief Justice Parker in YvD made clear that he expected distance to be part of the NIP.
3. Remember most Safety Cameras Partnership offices are manned by ‘two men and a dog’ relying on you doing nothing except what they want you to. If everybody who received a scamera ticket were to challenge the ticket even on the basics, the system would melt down especially bearing in mind the various time out opportunities that exist in the law.
Don’t get mad get even
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crystal
post Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 17:41
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Hi,

The TRO wont help in this case as the Limit could not have been higher than 40 and he was doing 48.
The locus looks ok to me if the gatso is in Alsager.

I assume the Wizard recommed a PACE w/s statment and that would IMO be a good place to start a fight agaist the ticket.

regards
Crystal
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nottoobad
post Sun, 15 Oct 2006 - 14:46
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I think you'll have to rely on PACE statement - it looks to me like they've "got" you whatever else you do since you've admitted an offence of exceeding the speed limit proscribed for the vehicle you were driving sad.gif
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Mr-Jinx
post Sun, 15 Oct 2006 - 19:41
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QUOTE (nottoobad @ Sun, 15 Oct 2006 - 15:46) *
I think you'll have to rely on PACE statement - it looks to me like they've "got" you whatever else you do since you've admitted an offence of exceeding the speed limit proscribed for the vehicle you were driving sad.gif


I havent admitted it yet.. although I have on this forum. was that a mistake?

When filling in the NIP with a pace letter do I fill in the NIP as normal, sign it and then add that they should see the attatched letter or leave it blank?

Im sorry if this is a pretty obvious (or annoying) question, but I do need my hand to be held a little as im not to familiar with the process.

*edit* Ive expored this site a bit further and found a template for a PACE statement which I should fill out and attatch to the NIP. I have also read that I should send my NIP form back blank apart from "please see attatched letter". I hope ive got that right. Im still finding my way a little!

What is the success rate of this tactic? Surely they will close this "loophole" pretty soon?

One final question, I havent recieved the NIP yet but my employer has recently recieved it and posted it back naming me as the driver. How long do they have to send me a ticket in my name after recieving the filled out NIP from my boss? I dont suppose the 14 day rule applies here too does it? I know its a very very VERY long shot, but im clinging to the slim possibilty that my NIP will dissapear in the system? Ill probably get it tomorrow though sad.gif

This post has been edited by Mr-Jinx: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 - 20:01
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soft_lad
post Mon, 16 Oct 2006 - 11:14
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QUOTE (Mr-Jinx @ Sun, 15 Oct 2006 - 20:41) *
What is the success rate of this tactic? Surely they will close this "loophole" pretty soon?

Some people get a few bluff&bluster letters, then hear nothing more - see 'success stories' in the 'case files' forum. Others get a summons. If you want to keep fighting it, the best strategy (unless there's a problem with the summons) is probably to get an adjournment till after the O'Halloran/Francis cases (ECtHR looking into the validity of s172).

QUOTE (Mr-Jinx @ Sun, 15 Oct 2006 - 20:41) *
I dont suppose the 14 day rule applies here too does it?

Nope!


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Mr-Jinx
post Tue, 17 Oct 2006 - 02:21
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Theres no problem with a summons, although ill probably poo myself on the day. How much more am I likely to be stung by going to court and losing? Would I be going to court for speeding or failure to provide?

Im still waiting for the NIP in my name, Im expecting it tomorrow morning (tuesday)

Thanks for the replies, Im building up a picture of what action to take next and the possible outcomes. Beats just bending over for them!
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Mr-Jinx
post Sat, 4 Nov 2006 - 11:15
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Well, the long wait is over... Recieved the NIP in my name today, dated 3/11/06.

Next course of action, pace letter to ARRIVE at the scamera offices no later than 28 days? Would you like me to scan and post my NIP on this thread?

Game on! smile.gif
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Mr-Jinx
post Sun, 3 Dec 2006 - 23:59
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I have sent a pace letter back with 3 days to spare, recorded delivery which they have now recieved. On the 1st I received a reminder giving me another 7 days Doh! More time I could have used.

Anyway, I await their reply. I will post up more info when i recieve it.
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Mr-Jinx
post Wed, 6 Dec 2006 - 13:21
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Recieved a letter dated 4/12/2006 from the central ticket office giving me a conditional offer of fixed penalty. They havent mentioned my pace letter at all. I was atleast expecting a letter that explained that pace was not a good defence or something similar.

They are now asking for £60 and surrender of my licence unless I want to go to court and face a maximum fine of £1000 and 6 penalty points.

Seems that If I go to court it will be for the speeding offence and not S172 as they have accepted my pace letter as an admission of guilt.

Anyway, just thought id update the forum for anyone who is interested, I know there is atleast one other HGV driver in a similar situation as me.

Is there any new news on PACE in court, has it been shot down in flames yet?
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Mr-Jinx
post Wed, 21 Feb 2007 - 12:25
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Just recieved a court summons this morning (21/2/2007) I was only thinking about my friends at the speed camera unit yesterday too!

Theres quite a bit of paperwork including my PACE letter which seems to have been photocopied about a million times and is of poor quality.

Theres a statement from the camera operator explaining how he loaded the film then 2 days later unloaded it and took it away

Theres another statement from the person who examines the pictures explaining how one of the frames showed a truck travelling at 48mph on the A5011 and how the speed limit for this road is 60MPH. Does this statement then say I wasnt speeding? The limit for cars is 60, but for trucks its 40mph. This isnt explained on the witness statement. The first page of my court bundle does say that I was exceeding the maximum speed in relation to a vehicle in that class though, i.e exceding 40 mph.

Theres also a "certificate of evidence from computer" signed by a camera technician stating " the speed of the vehicle having been recorded as 48mph. This is in excess of that legally permissible for that road, namely 60 mph". 48 doesnt exceed 60.... hummm.

What next? Fold? icon_hang.gif

This post has been edited by Mr-Jinx: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 - 12:27
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The Rookie
post Wed, 21 Feb 2007 - 12:35
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I see three choices
1/ Fold now by pleading guilty. Expect only small costs on top of the £60/3 points
2/ Plead not guilty and hope the ECtHR ruling comes through before your trial proper, if not then plead guilty.
3/ Contest it all the way expecting to be found guilty, and then appeal pending the ECtHR
In all cases where fighting try and get an adjournment for the ECtHR ruling (or Burgess-James in the high court...) which could come through fom any time now (upto June -ish)

fourth+ options is the ones I haven't thought of.....

Simon


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Mr-Jinx
post Wed, 21 Feb 2007 - 14:17
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Theyve applied for 35 costs, will my fine and points increase for daring to mess with "the man"?

This post has been edited by Mr-Jinx: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 - 14:22
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V70
post Wed, 21 Feb 2007 - 22:24
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QUOTE (Mr-Jinx @ Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 12:21) *
On a 60 MPH road


As I was driving an HGV an emergency braking manouve would have been dangerous



Just one point a 60MPH road? was it a 60 or a NSL single carriage way?

Either way if it was a single carriage way the Limit for HGV's as you well know is 40MPH

This post has been edited by V70: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 - 22:26


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Mr-Jinx
post Thu, 22 Feb 2007 - 05:02
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QUOTE (V70 @ Wed, 21 Feb 2007 - 22:24) *
QUOTE (Mr-Jinx @ Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 12:21) *
On a 60 MPH road


As I was driving an HGV an emergency braking manouve would have been dangerous



Just one point a 60MPH road? was it a 60 or a NSL single carriage way?

Either way if it was a single carriage way the Limit for HGV's as you well know is 40MPH


Yes I know but id crept over the limit. Its a fair cop, no excuse for it at all other than lapse of concerntration.

The road was a NSL 60mph single carriageway

This post has been edited by Mr-Jinx: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 - 05:03
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roythebus
post Thu, 22 Feb 2007 - 14:57
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Presumably your lorry was fitted with a tachograph and you were using it correctly? It could hang you or clear you. Ask your employer for the original chart. If you weren't using it correctly or not at all, then you are rather silly (or stronger words to that effect).

It seems odd that I have heard of certain cases where VOSA and the police have used tachos to try to convict commercial drivers for breaking the speed limit, but lo and behold, when a commercial driver has tried to use it to clear himself, the tacho has not been allowed!

It may pay to have the chart analysed by an expert witness who could say without reasoable doubt that at that exact time, your speed was below the 40mph prosrcirbed for lorries. The spy in the cab CAN be your friend, sometimes. It's got me off a couple of things in the past!
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Mr-Jinx
post Thu, 22 Feb 2007 - 16:47
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No, I was doing 48. I remember looking at the speedo as I passed though the speed trap thinking "its ok gatsos cant tell im in a lorry" Famous last words! The tacho will definatley hang me in this case!

I was under the impresson that tacho charts are not admissible evidence in speeding cases on either side?
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Roverboy
post Thu, 22 Feb 2007 - 21:31
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Ummmmmmm, excuse my stooopidity but, how DO gatso's tell if its a HGV.


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bama
post Thu, 22 Feb 2007 - 22:22
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QUOTE (Roverboy @ Thu, 22 Feb 2007 - 21:31) *
Ummmmmmm, excuse my stooopidity but, how DO gatso's tell if its a HGV.


That is not stooopid. It is a damn fine interesting question.
I have a feeling that this is something we need to know about.


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Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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