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Lewisham PCN - Suspended Bay
fightforwhatsrig...
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 20:17
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Hi Forum

I'm wondering if anyone had any advice? I was given a PCN for parking in a suspended bay - however I'm pretty sure that the sign wasn't there when I parked, and only went up less than 24 hours before the date of suspension. I certainly didn't see the sign when I parked. My response that I sent to the PCN is below:

________________________
My vehicle was in situ when the suspension signs were erected. I did not enter a parking bay whilst the suspension signs were in place and therefore I cannot be culpable. Neither am I at fault if the Council erected signs without my knowledge or took no steps to inform me. The vehicle had been in this position since Monday evening 5th August at 7pm – therefore the sign (which I am assuming was put on the post the following morning) gave less than 24 hours notice prior to the suspension coming into effect. I did not return to my vehicle until 9pm this evening, Wednesday 7th August. There are no signs of any work on the space outside the ‘suspended area’ having been done today.
My understanding of the suspension sign regime is that signs have to be erected at least 24 hours before the restriction comes into force and motorists have legitimate expectations in that regard. I would also expect that local residents would be notified of the upcoming restriction by leaflet or more modern forms of communication such as email - particularly as some residents only sporadically use their vehicles, and often have to park at some distance from their homes due to the demand for parking spaces.

I would have expected that the Council's officers who erected the sign should have noted the VRM of vehicles already in place at that time. Not to do so would, in my opinion, fetter the Councils discretion as regards subsequent representations/appeals.
In view of the above I contend that the contravention did not occur.

_________________________

Unfortunately, the Council have rejected my appeal, saying that they a) put up the warning sign on 1st August at 14:33 (however I’m pretty sure that it wasn’t there when I parked), and b) “our engineers recorded the registration numbers of the parked vehicles” when the sign went up, and my car reg was not on it. They have not submitted evidence of the time/date the sign went up, nor photographic evidence that my car was not there when the sign went up.

My question is – if I take this further, do I assume that they will be able to provide photographic evidence of the above, and if – on the slight chance that I didn’t actually spot the sign – I am wrong, then they can prove this?

And basically – is it worth taking this further to see if I can get it overturned? I feel pretty strongly that it is an unfair penalty – especially as no work was actually done in the parking bays during the time that the sign requested.

Photos of the PCN notice and the PCN info on the Lewisham page inc. photos are attached.

Any help is welcome! Even if it's that I need to just give in and pay!

Thank you!

This post has been edited by fightforwhatsright: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 20:20
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post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 20:17
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stamfordman
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 20:25
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The log is a key thing and it's hard to argue with it. Doesn't need pics. But there are other things we can look at so post the council pics, full council rejection and google street view of location.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.


This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 20:34
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fightforwhatsrig...
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 20:55
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Excellent. Links to photos here:

https://ibb.co/bHC3NG1
https://ibb.co/3p8MRsx
https://ibb.co/x85Bmcg
https://ibb.co/3d1KSPy
https://ibb.co/xS5BdtR
https://ibb.co/qkcnfLg
https://ibb.co/bvVV2mq
https://ibb.co/cXZFgN7
https://ibb.co/DQWBFgB
https://ibb.co/6JRtTd4
https://ibb.co/qFYTsmQ

Google street view is here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4593112,-0....6384!8i8192

Full response from Council attached.
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cp8759
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 22:36
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This is going to be tricky. The council has provided a reasoned and detailed response, they say the sign went up on August 1st and if you parked after August 1st, the issue of whether that is adequate notice becomes irrelevant. They say they have a detailed log of VRMs and your car is not on it.

Basically you can pursue this is you are 100% certain that their records are wrong, because when the suspension log is produced in evidence at the tribunal their case will fall apart. But if there's a chance the sign was there and you simply didn't see it, you risk losing the discount for nothing.

So, did you actually check the signs when you parked, as the notional diligent motorist is expected to do each and every time they park in a bay, even if they've parked there a million times before? Or did you simply park up and assume it would be ok?


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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 06:42
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10 minute grace period should apply but I hesitate given the last couple of cases went t*ts up.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4593514,-0....6384!8i8192

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 06:45
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hcandersen
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 07:49
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Why shouldn't it apply? I think it does. Do you have any decisions and reasoning to the contrary?


And IMO the point to make is that according to the authority the resident permit holder motorist was penalised at 9.02 for parking where they were not permitted whereas had a non-permit holder been parked there at 9.02 on a regular day they would have been afforded the benefit of having until 9.11 to remove their car by virtue of the '10-minute grace' regulations. Therefore as the situations are analogous in that in neither case was an unentitled motorist permitted to park, why is the OP as the holder of a permit being treated disadvantageously by not being given the benefit of the 10-minute rule?

However, in the present case and unless a poster has knowledge that the authority re-offer the discount after reps I suggest the OP pays the discount.


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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 08:23
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@hca
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1496926
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1507255
I am still furious about both.
Mick

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hcandersen
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 08:49
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Agreed. But it does give an insight into their thinking and what OPs must put to authorities in reps and the adj in any appeal.

From the Act:

1)A local authority may by order designate parking places on highways or, in Scotland, roads in their area for vehicles or vehicles of any class specified in the order; and the authority may make charges (of such amount as may be prescribed under section 46 below) for vehicles left in a parking place so designated.

The exercise of this power by a local authority F2. . . in relation to a highway or road for which they are not the traffic authority is subject to obtaining the consent of the traffic authority.]
[F3(1A)Transport for London may not by virtue of subsection (1) above designate parking places on any highway which is not a GLA road.]

(2)An order under this section may designate a parking place for use (either at all times or at times specified in the order)

The law makes it clear that 'designation' as a parking place and use as a parking place are totally separate issues and that designation fundamentally changes the status of a length of street. It also raises the issue as to whether it is subject to controls only during its hours of operation. For example, in this case what is the suspended period between 6.30 and 7pm if the parking place is not subject to controls by virtue of its designation beyond 6.30?
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 11:34
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A differing view

Case reference
2170123723
Appellant
Amy MacDougall
Authority
London Borough of Camden
VRM
KC55AXP

PCN Details
PCN
CU46911325
Contravention date
06 Jan 2017
Contravention time
08:02:00
Contravention location
Camden Street
Penalty amount
GBP 130.00
Contravention
Parked wholly/partly in a suspended bay or space

Referral date


Decision Date
22 Apr 2017
Adjudicator
Jennifer Shepherd
Appeal decision
Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and refund forthwith the penalty charge and the release fees paid.
Reasons
I heard from Mr Pedro, the partner of the appellant at a hearing today.
The appellant makes several points about the validity of the suspension of this bay.
In the first place it is said that Ms MacDougall and Mr Pedro both parked the car together for the last time before the Christmas festivities on Christmas Eve in this bay immediately outside the lowrise flats where they live. It remained there until 6 January when the Penalty Charge Notice was issued. They are adamant that there was no suspension warning sign there on that day nor on any of the days upon which they walked past the bay over the Christmas period. The first that they were aware that there had been a suspension was when they discovered that the car had been removed, and they noticed the yellow suspension sign on the post some 3 or 4 vehicle lengths away. I found Mr Pedro an honest witness and gave weight to his evidence that there was no yellow suspension sign erected up to 14 days before the date of the suspension itself, as claimed by the Authority.
I have considered the officer's record as to the suspension, on which the council relies for the assertion that the suspension sign was indeed erected 14 days prior to 6 January. I note that the wording of the record is not in terms conclusive of the fact that a sign had been erected – it merely seems to confirm that an order for suspension had been made. To that extent therefore and taken together with the persuasive evidence of Mr Pedro I conclude that there is some confusion about when the suspension sign was in fact erected.
I also take into account Mr Pedro's evidence that during this period there were multiple suspensions erected over a period of time in this street and for short periods. It is in those circumstances well within the bounds of likelihood that the keeping track of the suspensions and necessary signage had become difficult.

There is force in the argument that the officer should have allowed a 10 minute period of grace before issuing the Penalty Charge Notice, in line with Section 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015. This is the provision which applies where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and been left beyond the permitted parking period. The crucial element is that the initial parking must have been lawful. In this case a course it was, at the time the vehicle was left the suspension was not actually in force, even if there is debate about when the warning sign was erected. The suspension came into force at 8 AM on the morning of 6 January and the PCN was issued at 8:02 AM. In the circumstances I conclude that the issue of this PCN was not compliant with the requirements of the "10 minute grace period" regulations and that the appeal could be allowed on that basis.

A final point is on the wording of the sign itself. The appellant points out that it was imprecise, referring to the suspended spaces in relation to the numbers of properties on the opposite side of the street. This can be contrasted with a sign relating to a later suspension (one of the series) in the same bay, a photograph of which was produced by Mr Pedro and which refers to property numbers on the side of the street on which the bay is situated.
Authority Response


Decision Date
24 Jun 2017
Adjudicator
Henry Michael Greenslade
Previous decision
Appeal allowed
Appeal decision
Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and refund forthwith the penalty charge and the release fees paid.
Reasons
This is an application for review by the Enforcement Authority on the basis that the original Adjudicator has erred in law.
In effect, Enforcement Authority ground is that the original Adjudicator should not have held that Regulation 4(3) of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007, as inserted by Regulation 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015, that no penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes, does apply.
The Enforcement Authority submit that when a bay is suspended, as was the position in this present case, the prevision cannot apply.
In many cases it will not and certainly will not if the vehicle is parked after the suspension comes into force.
In this case the suspension came into force at 08:00 and the Penalty Charge Notice was issued at 08:02.
The vehicle was in a resident parking bay for which it was assigned a resident parking permit. The owner had paid to park their vehicle in the bay by purchasing the permit. It is irrelevant whether it is a physical or virtual permit. Regulation 4(4)(b) of the 2007 Regulations, as amended therefore applies because a period of parking that had been paid for as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place and that period ended at 08:00.
Considering the submission before me carefully I find no ground for review of the original Adjudicator’s decision, which therefor stands.
____________________________________________________________
Original Decision:


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fightforwhatsrig...
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 18:51
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All brilliant, thanks everyone. I'm guessing the overall view would be to just pay up now - unless I fancy going along to a hearing and chancing my arm...
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cp8759
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 20:51
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The 10 minute rule should apply, but the outcome cannot be guaranteed.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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