"Permit holders only" PCN from CE Service Options

[Rikki_Sixx]

Afternoon all!

This week I received a PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd (CE), regarding parking without a permit at a doctors surgery. The alleged infraction happened on 24/05, and I received the notice on 30/05. The PCN states:

We therefore require payment of this Parking Charge Notice, in accordance with the terms and conditions clearly stated on the signage:

Permit holders only

The car was parked at the surgery from 12:49 to 13:01 while a passenger nipped in to collect a prescription. The driver remained in the car. The PCN includes a photograph of the car arriving and leaving.

The car had no permit but according to the website for the doctors surgery there are screens inside for visitors to enter their registration number when parking. The passenger of the vehicle didn't realise this was the case and so didn't use the screen to enter any details.

I'm not sure how to proceed with this as I've never had anything along these lines. The amount due is set at £100, going down to £60 if paid within 14 days. So far I've not paid anything or made contact with CE, and luckily I was pointed toward these forums.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Happy to provide any further information, and to edit this post accordingly if I've missed anything (or said anything I shouldn't have!).

Thanks!

This post has been edited by Rikki_Sixx: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 11:24

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[ManxRed]

Might be worth contacting the surgery and asking them to get the ticket cancelled. Odds on, they'll have received dozens of complaints already and will be getting used to asking CE Ltd to cancel tickets.

[ostell]

Post up a picture of the sign

[Rikki_Sixx]

I'll swing by the surgery and get a photograph of the sign. I didn't see it on the day (though I'm not saying there isn't one).

I called the surgery and the woman was unable to help, but might try again a few more times and speak to different staff members, see if anyone else knows more. I did get given a number for CE, but would rather not speak to them until I know more!

[ManxRed]

DON'T PHONE THE PARKING COMPANY.

Keep everything between you and CE in writing. If you call they will record the call and will attempt to get you to incriminate yourself in some way. They do it for a living.

[Rikki_Sixx]

Bit of a delay in getting these, but I managed to drop by the car park (and stay ouitside it) to get some photos of the signs. Hopefully these are clear enough images!







They're everywhere... (although when the car park is busy, who's looking at the walls?)



This post has been edited by Rikki_Sixx: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 08:09

[Dave65]

If you phone the surgery again ask to speak to the practice MANAGER only or an email address for such.

Signs look like they are forbidding signage.

This post has been edited by Dave65: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 09:07

[The Rookie]

When you speak to the practice manager remind them of the NHS guidance on parking enforcement and that genuine patients making genuine mistakes should NOT be penalised. If they won't listen that's one to take up with your MP, after all it's our money paying for the service!

Knock yourself out.... https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...mberUpdated.pdf

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 09:42

[Rikki_Sixx]

I've been given the run-around by the doctors surgery for a few days, and finally managed to get the practise manager's email address. I sent an email asking for their help, explaining what happened and trying to convey that it was a genuine accident. I just heard back this afternoon.

Apparently the practise only has a small allocation of cancellations that they're allowed to do, which are usually reserved for patients (the vehicle occupants used the adjoining pharmacy, which shares a car park). The practise has already used their allocation for this month, and so they're "unable to help, even as a gesture of goodwill".

I'm not quite sure what to do next. I'm going to try and contact the pharmacy as they share the car park and have the same system set-up, but failing that what would be my next steps? There has been no contact with CE Ltd (I will not be contacting them) but I am nearing the end of my 14 day period before the price goes up.

Any advice about what to do next would be great!

[The Rookie]

Complain to your MP, they have obviously signed a contract which prohibits them from fulfilling their obligations to comply with government guidance, I think the relevant word is incompetence.

[Rikki_Sixx]

they have obviously signed a contract which prohibits them from fulfilling their obligations to comply with government guidance

Thanks Rookie, I'll get on to both my local MP and the MP of the area where the parking took place (both Leeds). Would you be able to explain a bit more what you mean about being unable to fulfill obligations to comply with government guidance? Or point me to a relevant post / piece of info?

Also Dave65 mentioned this is "forbidding signage", but I'm not sure what the implication is there. Does this mean that technically they may not be able to pursue the charge from the vehicle owner?

[ostell]

If it says permit holders only then there is no offer of a contract to park fo non permit holders. No contract then there can be no breach and therefore no charge.

[Rikki_Sixx]

Thanks Ostell, much appreciated. I've found an appeal template which I'll use in the next few days if I don't hear back from the surgery again, or the MP. Am I right in thinking I need to submit an appeal around the 14 day mark? I'm fully expecting them to deny the appeal, and to go POPLA stage.

Having a quick look on the CE Ltd site, the first question (before you can appeal) is "were you the driver?". Is it best to refute this at first appeal stage?

[The Rookie]

Would you be able to explain a bit more what you mean about being unable to fulfill obligations to comply with government guidance? Or point me to a relevant post / piece of info?

Government guidance makes it clear that genuine visitors making a genuine mistake should not be penalised, it's quite firm on that. How can they set a numerical limit and comply with that, how can one person be penalised for making the same mistake as someone else who has been let off just because the surgery has exceeded and arbitrary and un-researched limit for that month? Its possible someone with less of an reason for being given lenience is let off just because it's at the start of the month? The contract means they cannot comply with government guidance and they shouldn't have signed it.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 11:22

[ostell]

That's why an appeal by post is sometimes better, you don't have to offer info that they really want. If you do then first class with free certificate of posting from a post office

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 11:25

[Rikki_Sixx]

Hi all, just a quick update on my PCN from CE Ltd: VICTORY!

After speaking to the practise manager at the surgery where I received the notice, and the manager of the adjoining pharmacy, I sent off a brief generic appeal letter using a template. A few weeks later I got a brief letter confirming receipt of my appeal, and 2 or 3 days later I got another very short letter saying that the parking charge had been dropped! I was expecting more of a fight, but I'm glad that I spoke to folks here on PePiPoo and did some research.

I imagine a lot of people - particularly those less savvy when it comes to researching things - roll over and pay through fear of prosecution. It's essentially fear-mongering.

Interestingly, the manager at the pharmacy which shares the car park (but doesn't own the land or have a say in the parking enforcement) actually offered to give me a template letter which he gives to customers. He gets a lot of complaints and has a letter on hand to help them out. The office of my MP was also willing to step in, depending on the outcome of my appeal, which had already started.

A big thanks to everyone here! Keep fighting the good fight!

[SunnyJ1991]

Can I ask if you went through the appeal on the CE website? I have a very similar situation on my hands. And please could you share the template you used? Thank you

[Chijiki]

SunnyJ1991,

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Start a thread of your own which will solicit up to date and meaningful answers to your own particular case.