[PCN] Disputing a council parking fine for obstructing a "driveway" |
[PCN] Disputing a council parking fine for obstructing a "driveway" |
Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 19:55
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,386 |
Hi
Hopefully someone can provide some advice. I am trying to draft a letter to the council regarding a recent parking fine which was left on my car whilst parked on my road. Background: I live at the end of a cul-de-sac. Neighbours/relatives have been half parking on the pavement and one side of the road and on the sides of the cul-de-sac for years (this allows emergency vehicles to enter the road as it would otherwise be too narrow if we parked on the road. Council have never had issues with this and there are no yellow lines. We have recently had a new neighbour move in who has a house on the side of the cul-de-sac and a curved wall dividing the driveway from the pathway (see photo below). He has a shared driveway with dropped curb which he refuses to use and has instead broken the wall down, claimed the adjacent footway to his driveway and told other neighbours they are no longer allowed to park there. He wants to use the footway for access to his driveway (not a dropped curb). Cars continue to park there and he asks them to move. He has more recently called the police who basically weren't impressed with him for wasting their time. He has now resorted to contacting the council and alleges that my car is obstructing his "driveway". Someone came today and slapped a ticket on my car. He was confronted by my neighbour and just shrugged his shoulders and said it wasn't up to him to decide whether it was a driveway or not. This clearly isn't a driveway and by the council's rationale, every car half-parked on the raised curb road would need a ticket. I am pretty stumped on how to approach this and would like to word a powerful letter to the council but feel I like the skills. Any help would be gratefully received. Ticket details https://ibb.co/LRHRH5K Diagram and map for context https://ibb.co/xCWSmzk GREEN = my car RED STRIPS = Neighbours shared driveway X = Neighbours house --> https://ibb.co/4d8kXRr Google maps https://www.google.com/maps/place/Eldon+Ave...33;4d-0.3721602 This post has been edited by dindoo: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 22:21 |
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 19:55
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 19:59
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Let's see the PCN, council pics and a google street view location link.
Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited. |
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 20:09
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,386 |
Let's see the PCN, council pics and a google street view location link. Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited. Thank you for replying. I have amended the first post with the details you requested. |
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 20:27
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,056 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
The council's photos are essential.
OP, I suspect that parking life as you know it has changed. The law prohibits: 1. Parking on the footway; 2. Parking on the carriageway at a dropped kerb. There are no relevant exemptions to 1, and the only one which might be applicable to 2 is that the occupier of premises accessed by the crossover which terminates at the carriageway may park on the carriageway adjacent to their dropped kerb provided their access is not to a shared drive. GSV suggests all crossovers are accessing shared drives and so no parking on the carriageway adjacent to a dropped kerb and no parking on the footway. Some councils turn a blind eye to footway parking and this can be used as a defence - legitimate expectation. But this rabbit can only be pulled out of the hat once. If a person with sufficient reason complains to the council then they are obliged to enforce the law. For info, a person's parking rights end at their property boundary. Therefore a crossover is public highway, its purpose is to facilitate vehicles entering and exiting the carriageway from/to adjacent premises: a crossover remains part of the footway and belongs to the public, not the property occupier who, if they park on the crossover, would commit an offence enforceable by the local council. |
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 20:29
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
We need the councils photos. Obstruction is not a consideration it is parked adjacent to the DK
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 20:35
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,386 |
The council's photos are essential. OP, I suspect that parking life as you know it has changed. The law prohibits: 1. Parking on the footway; 2. Parking on the carriageway at a dropped kerb. There are no relevant exemptions to 1, and the only one which might be applicable to 2 is that the occupier of premises accessed by the crossover which terminates at the carriageway may park on the carriageway adjacent to their dropped kerb provided their access is not to a shared drive. GSV suggests all crossovers are accessing shared drives and so no parking on the carriageway adjacent to a dropped kerb and no parking on the footway. Some councils turn a blind eye to footway parking and this can be used as a defence - legitimate expectation. But this rabbit can only be pulled out of the hat once. If a person with sufficient reason complains to the council then they are obliged to enforce the law. For info, a person's parking rights end at their property boundary. Therefore a crossover is public highway, its purpose is to facilitate vehicles entering and exiting the carriageway from/to adjacent premises: a crossover remains part of the footway and belongs to the public, not the property occupier who, if they park on the crossover, would commit an offence enforceable by the local council. If they enforced an offence based on .1 - then technically they should have left tickets on all cars parked on one side of the road? If the chap uses his car to drive over the footway, when he has a designated shared driveway, is this not an offence? I was under the impression that we had to pay to drop the curb to allow cars in and out of the driveway, I didn't think getting rid of a driveway wall gave you access to use the adjacent footway as a driveway Do I have a basis to fight this? If so how should I go about it? Should I appeal online and first ask for their photos? This post has been edited by dindoo: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 20:39 |
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 20:37
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
look on hounslow's site for pics or PM me the car reg.
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 20:43
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,386 |
look on hounslow's site for pics or PM me the car reg. cheers, PM sent. I logged on to appeal and got further information: https://ibb.co/RPNTxHy This post has been edited by dindoo: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 21:07 |
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 20:51
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,056 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
If they enforced an offence based on .1 - then technically they should have left tickets on all cars parked on one side of the road? Next time they might ticket everyone in the road who's parked on the footway! If the chap uses his car to drive over the footway, when he has a designated shared driveway, is this not an offence? Driving cars on the footway is an offence - there are lots of them about - for reasons of public safety and to avoid damage to the footway. However, driving over the footway using a crossover - the clue is in the name - is permissible. |
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 20:56
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Well no question the neighbour is not happy but is it a contravention? looks like you are right and he's trying it on as there's no DK by his car but there's no big kerb either. Also, I presume the middle part is used to drive in an out for others. The CEO took 13 pics - obviously trying to work it out too. Here are five.
This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 20:59 |
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 20:58
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,386 |
If they enforced an offence based on .1 - then technically they should have left tickets on all cars parked on one side of the road? Next time they might ticket everyone in the road who's parked on the footway! If the chap uses his car to drive over the footway, when he has a designated shared driveway, is this not an offence? Driving cars on the footway is an offence - there are lots of them about - for reasons of public safety and to avoid damage to the footway. However, driving over the footway using a crossover - the clue is in the name - is permissible. okay, so I guess he wants to drive over the footway which isn't a crossover, in order to get in/out his driveway. It can clearly be seen that there is a designated crossover in the photo that he is supposed to use. If I park on the road adjacent to the footway, this will obstruct the cul-de-sac and cause issues for my neighbours. Do I have any grounds to make a challenge with the support of the rest of my neighbours? The neighbours are pretty much onboard with me and against this guy's recent actions - they would be happy to join the fight/sign petition or even accept parking fines and dispute it with me - I don't know if this makes any difference? (we've been neighbours for 30+ years) EDIT: @stamfordman - cheers for the uploads bud This post has been edited by dindoo: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 21:14 |
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 21:16
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Dear Mr parking officer
I challenge the issue of this PCN as your CEO is clearly in error. I was parked at a part of the kerb that had not been lowered to meet the level of the carriageway Rather adjacent to a area wher the householder had knocked down a wall The is a lowered kerb behind me and a lowered kerb in front but where i parked was not at a lowered kerb and the contravention cited did not occur Please cancel this PCN without delay for to do otherwise would be frivolous and wholly unreasonable to the effect that if forced to tribunal i will surely seek recompense for my time and cost of dealing with this matter -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 21:26
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,386 |
Dear Mr parking officer I challenge the issue of this PCN as your CEO is clearly in error. I was parked at a part of the kerb that had not been lowered to meet the level of the carriageway Rather adjacent to a area wher the householder had knocked down a wall The is a lowered kerb behind me and a lowered kerb in front but where i parked was not at a lowered kerb and the contravention cited did not occur Please cancel this PCN without delay for to do otherwise would be frivolous and wholly unreasonable to the effect that if forced to tribunal i will surely seek recompense for my time and cost of dealing with this matter Thanks a lot for your input! I appreciate you putting this together, this sounds very concise and to the point. Is it possible to also petition that they put up this sign on the road to allow the rest of us to avoid any further dispute? I will await further input from other valued members of this forum such as yourself before sending a reply based on this. This post has been edited by dindoo: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 21:31 |
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 21:33
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,056 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
All those offences to choose from...
and the eejit chooses the wrong one, doh! Although, of course, they may have been told not to use the footway parking contravention for fear this would open the very can of worms to which I referred in my first post. Unfortunately, these offences are not synonymous and only the correct one may be used. A kerb lowered to meet the footway -in this context also known colloquially as a crossover- is exactly that. It is not some random part of the footway which coincidentally might be being used - unlawfully - by a neighbouring occupier to access their property. So how do you intend to play this with your neighbour - the council part is straightforward as per PMB (providing you're the registered keeper of your vehicle and your V5C details are current)? It's an offence for you to park where you did, enforceable by the council, whereas the offence of driving over the footway is only enforceable by the police. If push came to shove, you could enquire of the council planning enforcement section whether permission was needed by the owner of the property to convert it as seen which necessitates them driving over the footway to access the carriageway. This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 21:37 |
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Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 22:28
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,386 |
All those offences to choose from... and the eejit chooses the wrong one, doh! Although, of course, they may have been told not to use the footway parking contravention for fear this would open the very can of worms to which I referred in my first post. Unfortunately, these offences are not synonymous and only the correct one may be used. A kerb lowered to meet the footway -in this context also known colloquially as a crossover- is exactly that. It is not some random part of the footway which coincidentally might be being used - unlawfully - by a neighbouring occupier to access their property. So how do you intend to play this with your neighbour - the council part is straightforward as per PMB (providing you're the registered keeper of your vehicle and your V5C details are current)? It's an offence for you to park where you did, enforceable by the council, whereas the offence of driving over the footway is only enforceable by the police. If push came to shove, you could enquire of the council planning enforcement section whether permission was needed by the owner of the property to convert it as seen which necessitates them driving over the footway to access the carriageway. Edit: I came across this which sounds appropriate, no form though, just postal address and number. Should I fill out the form and do the above? Thanks for your replies guys, it really takes a load of my mind being able to share this burden. I'm not too sure how to play this one out, i'm a 64 year old man and too tired to deal with this crap. My son's usually would deal with it but they aren't around at the moment. The guy is a real idiot, I spoke to several neighbours who have had issues with him, not too sure what his deal is. I just don't think it is right he can knock down the wall and take claim to the adjacent footway for use of access to his driveway and challenge anyone who parks there. I will send a challenge to the council, but if they reject it, I guess they will also come down and ticket all the cars that have been parking on the side of the road for several years. I've spoken to them about it and they say they don't mind challenging it too - maybe this will give us some clout to fight back? Regarding council planning enforcement, is this the right form to fill: Planning Enforcement I can't really see anything that fits this situation in "Type of change", maybe there is another department? edit: i've also come across this. Would it be appropriate to phone them / send a letter with evidence of them driving straight over the footway to access their drive? This post has been edited by dindoo: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 06:40 |
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Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 08:57
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Keep things separate. Challenging the ticket is one thing on it's own and could go through 3 steps. With that we will guide you all the way.
The issue with the neighbour is totally separate. complaining to the planning dept may be a poisoned chalice. if the council come along and install a DK You could talk to your councillor about footway parking for to allow it a resolution of the council must be made. Do not stir the hornets nest of the parking dept all that is likely from that route is that they start to enforce in an area that they don't at present. If the neighbour continues to make complaints to the parking dept and they have to cancel a few PCN's then they will soon ignore him A gentlemen's agreement between you and him is the best bet. and to me it looks like if you parked on the carriageway he could get out, though perhaps not get in This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 09:02 -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 11:10
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,386 |
Keep things separate. Challenging the ticket is one thing on it's own and could go through 3 steps. With that we will guide you all the way. The issue with the neighbour is totally separate. complaining to the planning dept may be a poisoned chalice. if the council come along and install a DK You could talk to your councillor about footway parking for to allow it a resolution of the council must be made. Do not stir the hornets nest of the parking dept all that is likely from that route is that they start to enforce in an area that they don't at present. If the neighbour continues to make complaints to the parking dept and they have to cancel a few PCN's then they will soon ignore him A gentlemen's agreement between you and him is the best bet. and to me it looks like if you parked on the carriageway he could get out, though perhaps not get in Thank you all for your support. Much appreciated. I sent the PCN challenge off today, will await their response. In the mean time I will try and draft a letter to the counsellor and get it countersigned by the entire street bar this new young doctor who's recently moved in. Thanks again This post has been edited by dindoo: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 13:12 |
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Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 11:53
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,056 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
The issue with the neighbour is totally separate. complaining to the planning dept may be a poisoned chalice. if the council come along and install a DK
Yes, it's separate but no, councils don't spend taxpayers' money in this way. If the neighbour wants a crossover, then they must apply to the council and pay for one. This would cost at least £1800 n my estimation - this covers strengthening of the footway and reconfiguration of the kerb. There is nothing wrong with contacting planning. I've worked for councils whose policies were to not permit extensions of off-street parking for this very reason. And as for: I spoke to several neighbours who have had issues with him, not too sure what his deal is. I just don't think it is right he can knock down the wall and take claim to the adjacent footway for use of access to his driveway and challenge anyone who parks there. As already posted, he cannot lay claim to any part of the footway. Even if he managed to get approval - and he were to pay for - a crossover, he would still only be permitted to drive across it and NOT to park on it. But you're between a rock and a hard place. If he parks on the footway anywhere you could complain to the council who would then be obliged to enforce the footway parking prohibition against everyone. And if you petitioned for the footway parking prohibition to be disapplied, then you could play into your neighbour's hands because they could park partially on the footway without penalty. IMO, the PCN's the easy bit! This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 13:20 |
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Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 12:27
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
The issue with the neighbour is totally separate. complaining to the planning dept may be a poisoned chalice. if the council come along and install a DK Yes, it's separate but no, councils don't spend taxpayers' money in this way. If the neighbour wants a crossover, then they must apply to the council and pay for one. This would cost at least £1800 n my estimation - this covers strengthening of the footway and reconfiguration of the kerb. There is nothing wrong with contacting planning. I've worked for councils whose policies were to not permit extensions of off-street parking for this very reason. And as for: I spoke to several neighbours who have had issues with him, not too sure what his deal is. I just don't think it is right he can knock down the wall and take claim to the adjacent footway for use of access to his driveway and challenge anyone who parks there. As already posted, he cannot lay claim to any part of the footway. Even if he managed to get approval - and he were to pay for - a crossover, he would still only be permitted to drive across it and NOT to park on it. But you're between a rock and a hard place. If he parks on the footway anywhere you could complain to the council who would then be obliged to enforce the footway parking prohibition against everyone. And if you petitioned for the footway parking prohibition to be disapplied, then you could play into your neighbours hands because they could park partially on the footway without penalty. IMO, the PCN's the easy bit! I agree re the payment for the DK but cannot the council insist it is paid for if one is wanted. I also agree that polices of some councils prohibit extensions but is it worth the risk? i also agree the PCN is the easy bit -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 13:16
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,386 |
The issue with the neighbour is totally separate. complaining to the planning dept may be a poisoned chalice. if the council come along and install a DK Yes, it's separate but no, councils don't spend taxpayers' money in this way. If the neighbour wants a crossover, then they must apply to the council and pay for one. This would cost at least £1800 n my estimation - this covers strengthening of the footway and reconfiguration of the kerb. There is nothing wrong with contacting planning. I've worked for councils whose policies were to not permit extensions of off-street parking for this very reason. And as for: I spoke to several neighbours who have had issues with him, not too sure what his deal is. I just don't think it is right he can knock down the wall and take claim to the adjacent footway for use of access to his driveway and challenge anyone who parks there. As already posted, he cannot lay claim to any part of the footway. Even if he managed to get approval - and he were to pay for - a crossover, he would still only be permitted to drive across it and NOT to park on it. But you're between a rock and a hard place. If he parks on the footway anywhere you could complain to the council who would then be obliged to enforce the footway parking prohibition against everyone. And if you petitioned for the footway parking prohibition to be disapplied, then you could play into your neighbours hands because they could park partially on the footway without penalty. IMO, the PCN's the easy bit! I really don't mind him using it as a crossover if he pays for a DK. Equally I don't mind if he parked there when the space is vacant - he wouldn't want to do this though as it would defeat his purpose of wanting to keep the area free (so he can drive over the footway to access/exit his drive) With regards to contacting planning, would THIS be the right form? I am doubting whether it is because there doesn't seem to be an appropriate "type of change". I have photos from my driveway security cam of him driving over the pathway several times and can submit it. This post has been edited by dindoo: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 13:17 |
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