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No signage on Single Red Line?, Signage was on other road?
JRage
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 14:04
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Hello everyone,

Today I’ve been slapped with a PCN by 2 community police officers (I think!).

I know I shouldn’t parked on a single red line, I was literally only pop in the shop for a min or two.


Anyway, my contest for this is; the signage of restriction/times isn’t on the road where I parked (Sandringham Road), it was on other road around the corner (Kingsland High Street). So is it enough for me to make a appeal?

Also, the line isn’t consistent all the way around, it is changes from one red line (on Kingsland HS) to two red lines on the corner then back to one (on Sandringham Rd). So basically there’s no signage for Sandringham Road.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/2+Sandr...#33;4d-0.074923


The PCN I've got is, on Sandringham Road. At: 12.54. Reason: In circumstances giving me reasonable cause to believe that the vehicle was Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


Many thanks, Jase

(I’m on a motorbike too, so it doesn’t take up too much of the road as well.)

This post has been edited by JRage: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 16:02
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post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 14:04
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John U.K.
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 15:06
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QUOTE
Today I’ve been slapped with a PCN


As usual, for best advice please post up both sides of the PCN.
Also post up a GSV (Google Street View) link to the location.
Try this:
Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:
Some are having problems with Tinypic at he moment.. try Flikr, where the BBcodes are concealed behind the curly arrow for sharing.

Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems. Thera are other sites, such as Flickr, which enable you to paste the BBCodes into your post here.
STAGE 1 takes care of resizing. If you use Tinypic for Stage 2, on the left each image in Tinypic is a list of links. Highlight and copy the entire link 'for forums' from the list for each image - beginning with IMG and ending /IMG (include all the square brackets [ ] ), and paste each link into your post. Each copied and pasted link will embed a thumbnail link in your post.

Using the attachment method is not advised as it means quickly running out of attachment space.

Redact/obscure pers name, address, PCN number and reg.mark.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 15:06
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DastardlyDick
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 16:31
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Unfortunately, GSV is dated October 2015, so may not be of much use in determining what the signs and lines looked like on the day of the alleged contravention. Are you local to the location? If so, could you go and take your own photos and post them up?

The fact that you were on a motorcycle is irrelevant.

You're absolutely right in your supposition about who ticketed you - TfL have an agreement with the Met. Police's RTPC for their TPCSOs to enforce Red Routes.

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JRage
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 16:58
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Understood that GSV is old, but the lines is still same, so are the signs, I've checked when I got ticketed. Even the PSCO cannot find the sign for a bit then found them on Kingsland High Street to take picture of it. If really need me to take pictures, will do so on Monday as I'm away over the weekend.
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 18:25
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QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 17:31) *
Unfortunately, GSV is dated October 2015, so may not be of much use in determining what the signs and lines looked like on the day of the alleged contravention. Are you local to the location? If so, could you go and take your own photos and post them up?

The fact that you were on a motorcycle is irrelevant.

You're absolutely right in your supposition about who ticketed you - TfL have an agreement with the Met. Police's RTPC for their TPCSOs to enforce Red Routes.



All the more reason to see the PCN. I believe appeals have been won on adjudicators not having a copy PCN because there seems to be a process glitch with these street issued ones. The "reasonable cause" bit sounds like a FPN.

Mick
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DastardlyDick
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 19:11
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 19:25) *
QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 17:31) *
Unfortunately, GSV is dated October 2015, so may not be of much use in determining what the signs and lines looked like on the day of the alleged contravention. Are you local to the location? If so, could you go and take your own photos and post them up?

The fact that you were on a motorcycle is irrelevant.

You're absolutely right in your supposition about who ticketed you - TfL have an agreement with the Met. Police's RTPC for their TPCSOs to enforce Red Routes.



All the more reason to see the PCN. I believe appeals have been won on adjudicators not having a copy PCN because there seems to be a process glitch with these street issued ones. The "reasonable cause" bit sounds like a FPN.

Mick


TfLs PCNs use the "reasonable grounds" phrase as well. That, and the fact it says "stopped on a Red Route or clearway", just shouts 'PCN' to me.
The "glitch" may have been cured as TfL recently issued new HHCs with bespoke programming including OCR - I've seen them in action and they're pretty good!
However, I digress, we do need to see the PCN.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 14 Oct 2017 - 14:50
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I walked up here to the shops today and took a few pics - can't add anything to the OP's pics other than that there is a stretch of single red on the main road that also doesn't have a sign, i.e, this bit:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5499115,-0....3312!8i6656

My take is that single red route lines don't need individual plates if there is signage nearby - I may be wrong though. But if they do then where the OP was there is no sign.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 15 Oct 2017 - 09:12
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In respect of signs, red lines are more onerous then yellow ones.
ie, both doubles and singles need "No Stopping" symbol and "Red Route" and times for singles.
Schedule 6 of TSRGD 2016 refers
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/6/made

And one in the street round the corner is as much use as one in Liverpool.

Dunno If I would push it all the way with double red lines but would for a single.
You don't know if that applies for 23 hours per day or only on the second Friday of months with an R in.
Without a timeplate, it cannot be shown to be adequately signed.
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DastardlyDick
post Sun, 15 Oct 2017 - 13:38
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 15 Oct 2017 - 10:12) *
In respect of signs, red lines are more onerous then yellow ones.
ie, both doubles and singles need "No Stopping" symbol and "Red Route" and times for singles.
Schedule 6 of TSRGD 2016 refers
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/6/made

And one in the street round the corner is as much use as one in Liverpool.

Dunno If I would push it all the way with double red lines but would for a single.
You don't know if that applies for 23 hours per day or only on the second Friday of months with an R in.
Without a timeplate, it cannot be shown to be adequately signed.


Where on the page of TSRGD that you provided does it say that? As far as I can see that only applies to bays.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 15 Oct 2017 - 14:03
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QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Sun, 15 Oct 2017 - 14:38) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 15 Oct 2017 - 10:12) *
In respect of signs, red lines are more onerous then yellow ones.
ie, both doubles and singles need "No Stopping" symbol and "Red Route" and times for singles.
Schedule 6 of TSRGD 2016 refers
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/6/made

And one in the street round the corner is as much use as one in Liverpool.

Dunno If I would push it all the way with double red lines but would for a single.
You don't know if that applies for 23 hours per day or only on the second Friday of months with an R in.
Without a timeplate, it cannot be shown to be adequately signed.


Where on the page of TSRGD that you provided does it say that? As far as I can see that only applies to bays.


Link provided in post biggrin.gif
Tis a multi use sign, pick and choose the bits needed.
So only the upper and middle panels for Double Red Lines
Upper and middle with times for Singles
Add lower panel for bays.

Unfortunately TSRGD no longer links lines with signs but...
The General Direction at the bottom of the page relates back to traffic orders and that relates back to LATOR 1996 Regulation 18

Which means that an adjudicator would need to decide whether the signs are adequate.
First part of that decision is whether or not there is prescribed signage in TSRGD, there is, both signs and lines.
That infers that both should be used.

As I said, I'd not risk that on the doubles, substantial compliance comes to mind as the lines can only mean one thing.
But how can a single line without a time plate be compliant ?

If the authority rely on a sign in another street, they lose.
My concern would be whether an adjudicator would decide that a sign further down the same road is sufficient.
Like here
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5497133,-0....3312!8i6656
Although if still turned would be less concerned.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 - 14:20
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stamfordman
post Sun, 15 Oct 2017 - 14:35
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 15 Oct 2017 - 15:03) *
My concern would be whether an adjudicator would decide that a sign further down the same road is sufficient.
Like here
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5497133,-0....3312!8i6656
Although if still turned would be less concerned.


The OP was in the side road, Sandringham, not Kingsland, where the sign is. But TFL lines usually just go a bit into side roads, as here.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 15 Oct 2017 - 14:47
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 15 Oct 2017 - 15:35) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 15 Oct 2017 - 15:03) *
My concern would be whether an adjudicator would decide that a sign further down the same road is sufficient.
Like here
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5497133,-0....3312!8i6656
Although if still turned would be less concerned.


The OP was in the side road, Sandringham, not Kingsland, where the sign is. But TFL lines usually just go a bit into side roads, as here.


I'm having a bad day today rolleyes.gif

Still a slight concern but far less so. And only cos some London burkes at adjudication seem to think their job is to find ways to make the PCN stick.

In Sandringham, there are yellow lines then a single red then a double red.
Not one red route upright sign and the one round the corner is after the double as well as being in a different road.
My question to an adjudicator, should they be seeming to go the way of relying on a sign on the main, would be how do I know that an orphaned single red in a side road has the same restriction times ?
It simply cannot be relied on, it is a different red line.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 15 Oct 2017 - 20:23
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I suggest that the OP does not refer to the 'other' sign. They draw attention to it which is counterproductive when their argument rests on their restriction not being signed. So forget it.

As the authority's photos clearly show, I was parked on a length of red line in ****. As can be seen, it is bounded on the one side by a *** restriction and on the other by a double red line with a 24/7 restriction. There were no traffic signs within the length of the single red line (part-time stopping restriction) at the location. If the authority claim the contrary then they are required to show a sign at the location.

Given that whatever restriction applied at the location was not signed, then the authority have failed in their duty as per s18 of the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders(Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 which I have reproduced below:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/24...ulation/18/made
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