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Parking NTO/K
Octavia
post Sun, 21 Jan 2018 - 18:04
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Hello,

I think that I was the driver at the time of the alleged parking, but I have not had anything stuck to the windscreen. A NTO/K was recently received. I've scanned both sides of the paper, removed personal details and uploaded it to Tinypic.

I'm not sure if anyone can see any flaws in their documentation.

I know that it states that the car was parked in a disabled bay, and I know that this is no defence whatsoever, but I truly didn't know that it was a disabled bay. I think I was visiting an orthodontist for a review appointment, running slightly late and was then kept waiting. I am sorry that I put the car in a disabled bay, because I would never knowingly do that.




This post has been edited by Octavia: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 15:00
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Neil B
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 12:35
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QUOTE (Octavia @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 12:30) *
My intention then is to write a general letter of apology to them. If they reject it, I'll complete their NtO and return it

Noooooooo!

When is it going to sink in!


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Neil is good at working backwards.

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DancingDad
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 12:37
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If you write a general letter they will either ignore or take so long in answering that you have no time to challenge the Notice to Owner.

Make the challenge the grovelling letter
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hcandersen
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:13
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To echo many other posters, will you please listen.

You parked and even by your own admission you knew it was a parking place but hoped it was P&D which you didn't intend to pay anyway because you thought you could wing it.

You failed.

Any letter from you, however couched and caveated, which refers to the PCN and meets the requirements specified in the NTO will be and is required to be taken as formal reps by the authority in response to which they will consider your arguments and write with either a Notice of Acceptance (highly unlikely) or a Notice of Rejection. The NOR would probably re-offer the discount which in the eye of an adjudicator would neutralise any issue regarding Ground E.

But just in case you're not convinced, then look at this another way. They may disregard reps made outside the 28-day period which started on 18th. Therefore you would have until 14 Feb. to make 'formal' reps. So, let's say you could engage with them other than by making formal reps and let's say they hadn't responded by 14th, where would you be then? No formal reps so possibly straight to charge certificate!

Not only is their no third way, there's no second way either and the longer you argue the toss the closer the 14th gets.

You were caught bang-to-rights, so if I were you I'd set your objectives accordingly i.e. to be re-offered the discount.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:14
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Octavia
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 12:21
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 12:35) *
QUOTE (Octavia @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 12:30) *
My intention then is to write a general letter of apology to them. If they reject it, I'll complete their NtO and return it

Noooooooo!

When is it going to sink in!



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 12:37) *
If you write a general letter they will either ignore or take so long in answering that you have no time to challenge the Notice to Owner.

Make the challenge the grovelling letter



I kind of meant "a general letter of apology" in other words to a grovelling letter. I will try to grovel and use the letter to pay respects or appraise the town and some of its achievements or something. I'll get the letter sent very soon and will state to them that this is not an appeal/representation, more a kind request for some special dispensation for the ticket to be cancelled. If they do not cancel it, then I should still be within the 28 days from the serving of the notice (16th January) and will then start formal representations against the NtO using grounds for reps. E and F. The 28 days from the date of the serving of the notice will end on Monday, 12 February so, if I have not heard from them by say 9 February, I will then commence with formal representations. If they then send a NoR then I guess I'll be looking at taking the case to the TPT.



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:13) *
To echo many other posters, will you please listen.

You parked and even by your own admission you knew it was a parking place but hoped it was P&D which you didn't intend to pay anyway because you thought you could wing it.

You failed.

Any letter from you, however couched and caveated, which refers to the PCN and meets the requirements specified in the NTO will be and is required to be taken as formal reps by the authority in response to which they will consider your arguments and write with either a Notice of Acceptance (highly unlikely) or a Notice of Rejection. The NOR would probably re-offer the discount which in the eye of an adjudicator would neutralise any issue regarding Ground E.

But just in case you're not convinced, then look at this another way. They may disregard reps made outside the 28-day period which started on 18th. Therefore you would have until 14 Feb. to make 'formal' reps. So, let's say you could engage with them other than by making formal reps and let's say they hadn't responded by 14th, where would you be then? No formal reps so possibly straight to charge certificate!

Not only is their no third way, there's no second way either and the longer you argue the toss the closer the 14th gets.

You were caught bang-to-rights, so if I were you I'd set your objectives accordingly i.e. to be re-offered the discount.


Yes, I assumed that it was a parking place and had what was hoped to be a swift review appointment at an orthodontist. I had no change with me for the meter so I decided to put my car where I put it and get in and get out as quickly as possible on Monday, 18 December. I may also talk about the festive period in my grovelling letter.

In the initial grovelling letter I will be explicitly stating that this is not an appeal/formal representation. I probably will inform them that there wasn't anything attached to my vehicle when I returned to it either. The 28-day period from the Notice to Owner began on Tuesday, 16 January so I have until 12 February to make the formal reps. I'll simply wait to see if they respond to my 'grovelling letter' by Friday, 9 February. If not, then I will have already pre-prepared the formal reps and will then despatch it to them. If they reject those, then I will go to the TPT.

At the same time, though, I want to avoid their possibly re-offering a discount in any NoR (so as to not neutralise any issue regarding Ground E), so maybe I really should just follow the Regulations and commence with formal representations.

To clarify, the Notice to Driver was apparently issued on Monday, 18 December 2017, and the Notice to Owner was served on Tuesday, 16 January 2018.
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Neil B
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 12:29
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BangHead.gif BangHead.gif BangHead.gif


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Octavia
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 12:35
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 12:29) *
BangHead.gif BangHead.gif BangHead.gif


What?
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DancingDad
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 13:23
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QUOTE (Octavia @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 12:35) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 12:29) *
BangHead.gif BangHead.gif BangHead.gif


What?


DO NOT SEND A LETTER !!!!!

Make the formal challenge.
That may only be "I'm sorry I made a mistake but didn't have the chance to pay at discount as the PCN was not on my car etc etc"

But making a formal challenge within the 28 days is the only way to keep safely within the system.
Or paying of course.
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Octavia
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 13:47
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 13:23) *
QUOTE (Octavia @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 12:35) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 12:29) *
BangHead.gif BangHead.gif BangHead.gif


What?


DO NOT SEND A LETTER !!!!!

Make the formal challenge.
That may only be "I'm sorry I made a mistake but didn't have the chance to pay at discount as the PCN was not on my car etc etc"

But making a formal challenge within the 28 days is the only way to keep safely within the system.
Or paying of course.


Hmm, I begun to write a letter and just now about half way through I'm thinking to myself, 'well if I send this and they then reoffer the discount that will effectively (as @hcandersen said) neutralise my main ground for appeal, Ground E with the six missing words ("in the circumstances of the case"), so therefore I feel that I should waste no time and make formal representations forthright, hope for a NoA with cancellation or a NoR, and then go to the TPT with a face-to-face meeting'. Maybe I should not state that I could not find an original PCN stuck to the car etc.? I don't want them to reoffer the discount, because 1) I don't wish to pay and 2) I wish for the PCN to be cancelled.

In terms of the formal reps, I'll be referring the Council to some text on their own website which states:

QUOTE
"Disabled parking markings

A disabled parking marking is a rectangular shaped box that contains a symbol of a person in a wheel chair in the centre.

Anyone can park in a space with a disabled marking. However, if the procedure has been followed correctly then only vehicles with a current disabled badge can park in the space.

Markings in town centres are controlled by a Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) and are legally enforceable."


The bay(s) are not marked. There is merely a little sign. When I am looking to park I am often the sort of motorist that recognises that parking bays that are intended for disabled badge holders tend to be marked with such a legend on the ground, so this is what I mainly look for. To be honest, I'm not always moving my head in all directions hunting for signs, but I may have to start doing that more often (as long as the car is stationary because moving and darting a head in all directions probably makes things a little unsafe if the car isn't stationary!).

I'll also be tackling the point of their ambiguity in relation to those six omitted words, "in the circumstances of the case". That also, in my view, triggers Ground F (procedural impropriety).

Note to self = In the future, be extra vigilant in terms of signage and ensure that you leave yourself with ample time to park, pay for ticket, display etc.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 13:54
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OP, only you can risk your money, we can only advise so as to put your money at the least risk. And this means making formal reps now with ALL your grounds.

You might succeed with your plan, but equally it would be procedurally correct for the authority to consider your correspondence as formal reps or to disregard entirely if you state that you do not want them considered as such because under the regs it is too late for you to insist that pre-NTO reps are considered: this does not lie within your power.

So a possible outcome of what you propose, and one over which you would have NO control, is that the authority treat your first letter as formal reps, reject and re-offer the discount. At this stage, you would have 28 days beginning on service of the NOR to either appeal or pay, the authority are under NO obligation to consider any further correspondence from you. So, letter no. 2 goes out of the window and, if you appealed, you would be raising grounds E for the first time with the discount having been re-offered. Not the best plan, IMO.

But we can only advise, you must weigh the risks and potential benefits of your proposed course of action.
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Octavia
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 14:23
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 13:54) *
OP, only you can risk your money, we can only advise so as to put your money at the least risk. And this means making formal reps now with ALL your grounds.

You might succeed with your plan, but equally it would be procedurally correct for the authority to consider your correspondence as formal reps or to disregard entirely if you state that you do not want them considered as such because under the regs it is too late for you to insist that pre-NTO reps are considered: this does not lie within your power.

So a possible outcome of what you propose, and one over which you would have NO control, is that the authority treat your first letter as formal reps, reject and re-offer the discount. At this stage, you would have 28 days beginning on service of the NOR to either appeal or pay, the authority are under NO obligation to consider any further correspondence from you. So, letter no. 2 goes out of the window and, if you appealed, you would be raising grounds E for the first time with the discount having been re-offered. Not the best plan, IMO.

But we can only advise, you must weigh the risks and potential benefits of your proposed course of action.


I agree. I started writing a sort of 'grovelling letter' but thought that I don't then want them to reoffer any discount as that, like you said earlier, would neutralise Ground E.

The first side of their NtO asks for me to simply write a letter (A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H or I) into the box. I guess, at this stage, I don't need to tell them more than is needed other than to say that the Notice is not compliant with the Regulations, not to explain why. I will write letters E and F into the box and return the form. They'll then, no doubt, send a NoR. It is at the TPT where I guess I will construct a defence and send my case. The Council, to my understanding, might send their case and then the TPT hearing should then give me the opportunity to rebut the Council's submissions. Maybe the majority of Councils tend not to send representatives also...

This post has been edited by Octavia: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 14:39
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hcandersen
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 15:29
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Now you see why we didn't advise what you propose because only YOU can risk your money - an appeal is against the full penalty.

And if you think that adjudicators take kindly to attempts to ambush an authority with arguments made only at the appeal stage, then think again.
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Octavia
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 15:59
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 15:29) *
Now you see why we didn't advise what you propose because only YOU can risk your money - an appeal is against the full penalty.

And if you think that adjudicators take kindly to attempts to ambush an authority with arguments made only at the appeal stage, then think again.


I interpreted whoever first mentioned a grovelling letter etc. as what I was then proposing to do.

The Notice to Owner only asks for a letter to be written into the box so my reckoning is that that's all I need to do at this stage. Would you not agree?
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hcandersen
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 16:45
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No.

This doesn't limit your reps to one or more letters corresponding to the grounds of appeal.

You know it and you know the NTO doesn't state this.

You must remember that few adjudication decisions are so black and white that they can be predicted beforehand, and we've seen plenty of bizarre decisions going either way. Other factors must come into play, and either party playing or giving the clear impression that they're playing silly b*****s would not go down well.

And don't forget, you are not in control. If you simply sent in the NTO with boxes ticked then the authority would be permitted to get back to you and, for example, explain what's required and ask you to submit better details by a set date which would not affect the 28-day period.
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Octavia
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 19:05
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 16:45) *
No.

This doesn't limit your reps to one or more letters corresponding to the grounds of appeal.

You know it and you know the NTO doesn't state this.

You must remember that few adjudication decisions are so black and white that they can be predicted beforehand, and we've seen plenty of bizarre decisions going either way. Other factors must come into play, and either party playing or giving the clear impression that they're playing silly b*****s would not go down well.

And don't forget, you are not in control. If you simply sent in the NTO with boxes ticked then the authority would be permitted to get back to you and, for example, explain what's required and ask you to submit better details by a set date which would not affect the 28-day period.


As far as I read with the NtO, it's only asking for "the Grounds" to be entered into the box along with a declaration for name, signature and date. Grounds E and F are what I'll probably be writing in the box. Grounds G or I (on the reverse of the NtO paper), for example, though, do ask for more details.

This post has been edited by Octavia: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 19:23
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John U.K.
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 19:34
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QUOTE
As far as I read with the NtO, it's only asking for "the Grounds" to be entered into the box along with a declaration for name, signature and date. Grounds E and F are what I'll probably be writing in the box. Grounds G or I (on the reverse of the NtO paper), for example, though, do ask for more details.



The law says you may make representation, aa the Council correctly say on the NtO.

The law says that the NtO must contain the grounds for making such representations.

The law does not say that you must use the NtO itself to make representations: indeed, this particular NtO has no reoom for any representations.

This Council somewhat misleads the motorists by writing on the NtO below the heading Representations
Please use this form when making Representations.
and the instructions about the boxes which follow.
EDIT
However, they do ask for further details in the small print with each ground.

The grounds (reasons) for making reps are shown on the form. They are not the Representations themselves, which you must make on an accompanying piece of paper (or statement online), beginning with something like

re.PCN no.123456 issued dd/mm/yyyy reg.mark ABC123 and subsequent NtO date dd/mm/yyyy

I make formal representations against the above NtO and believe the PCN should be cancelled because

Ground X [description]
[explanation]

Ground Y [description]
[explanation]

[and repeat for each ground you wish to use]
Signed [Date]
Name Address.

-----------------

If attaching the Reps to the NtO, Keep hard copies of everything (print off everything if submitting online).
.

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 19:36
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Octavia
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 20:00
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 19:34) *
The law says that the NtO must contain the grounds for making such representations.


Their NtO seems to fail to accurately list each ground for representation. Ground E omits six critical words, "in the circumstances of the case", which is misleading and ambiguous.

The law does not say that you must use the NtO itself to make representations: indeed, this particular NtO has no reoom for any representations.

This Council somewhat misleads the motorists by writing on the NtO below the heading Representations
Please use this form when making Representations.
and the instructions about the boxes which follow.
EDIT
QUOTE
However, they do ask for further details in the small print with each ground.


I don't think that the small print under their printed Grounds E and F mention anything about providing more details.


I may just write letters E and F in the box, sign the declaration and return their Notice (before taking photocopies).

"Please use this form to make representations.
Enter in the Box the Grounds on which you are making representations (A, B, C etc.)
Please send your representations to the Council at the Parking Office, PO Box etc."

By writing some letters in the box, signing the declaration and returning the form, I think I am complying with their Notice and what it asks for etc.
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lashes1984
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 21:27
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OP, your money, your choice.

You parked and made a choice not to do so lawfully. There are many that park quickly, nip into the shops and hope they don’t come out to find a PCN, but in your case you went to an Orthodontist appointment. Having had orthodontic treatment myself, the appointments are never quick and these days whether it’s a visit to the doctor or dentist you’re rarely seen at your appointment time and there are always delays.

You have been given good advice by a number of members on this forum, who are extremely knowledgeable. Instead your responses indicate that you would rather embark on a course of action that is likely to result in you not achieving the outcome you desire and may result in further costs if you don’t engage with the process properly.
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Neil B
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 21:55
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QUOTE (Octavia @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 15:59) *
The Notice to Owner only asks for a letter to be written into the box

QUOTE (Octavia @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 19:05) *
As far as I read with the NtO, it's only asking for "the Grounds" to be entered into the box


Really? Where?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Octavia
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 22:49
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QUOTE (lashes1984 @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 21:27) *
OP, your money, your choice.

You parked and made a choice not to do so lawfully. There are many that park quickly, nip into the shops and hope they don’t come out to find a PCN, but in your case you went to an Orthodontist appointment. Having had orthodontic treatment myself, the appointments are never quick and these days whether it’s a visit to the doctor or dentist you’re rarely seen at your appointment time and there are always delays.

You have been given good advice by a number of members on this forum, who are extremely knowledgeable. Instead your responses indicate that you would rather embark on a course of action that is likely to result in you not achieving the outcome you desire and may result in further costs if you don’t engage with the process properly.


I had been several times to the orthodontist and they were always very much on time. My appointment was for a review (a shorter appointment, in theory).

I have been given some good advice and I have heard very good things about some of the members of this web site, hence why I am here. Having read some threads, I am very impressed.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 21:55) *
QUOTE (Octavia @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 15:59) *
The Notice to Owner only asks for a letter to be written into the box

QUOTE (Octavia @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 19:05) *
As far as I read with the NtO, it's only asking for "the Grounds" to be entered into the box


Really? Where?




Just below the half way point of page one underneath "Representations".

Upon my re-reading of the document, I see that it asks for something to be written into the box based on the Grounds for Representations overleaf. There's also a declaration at the bottom of page one. It is anyones' assumption then that the Authority expect the Notice to be returned back to them. Yes, one would expect an appellant to go into detail regarding their representation(s), but I'm not sure that it is 100% necessary or even obligatory at this stage.

This post has been edited by Octavia: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 22:52
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Neil B
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 23:14
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QUOTE (Octavia @ Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 22:49) *
Just below the half way point of page one underneath "Representations".

Oh dear.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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