Surprise NTO no windscreen PCN.. |
Surprise NTO no windscreen PCN.. |
Tue, 6 Oct 2020 - 20:26
Post
#1
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 8 Mar 2018 Member No.: 96,940 |
Okay - quite a strange one - been meaning to post since it arrived but keep getting distracted.
NTO received in the post 02/10/20 out of the blue - entirely a surprise as nothing on the day was out of ordinary whatsoever. NTO Pg 1 NTO Pg 2 NTO Pg 3 NTO Pg 4 On the day in question, the driver was visiting someone with a driveway a few doors up from where the contravention is alleged and had initially parked up on said driveway. During his visit, a bootload of furniture and the like arrived for the host, and the driver courteously offered to move his car to one of the nearby parking bays while the the stuff was unloaded. That and 15-20 mins later, driver moved the car back to the driveway and the rest of the evening went without a glitch, leaving a few hours later. So you can understand the driver's confusion when about 5 weeks later this NTO appears in the post! No PCN was ever found on the windscreen during the day..the NTO says it was served to the 'person appearing to be in charge of the vehicle' - I don't know if that's standard wording but the driver never received anything or even saw a parking attendant that day! The PCN number on the council's wesbite has some photos of the car but interestingly not of a PCN on the windscreen - here is the photo from the PCN. The driver is a bit peeved off of course because a) is issuing a PCN in this way even legal and b) how is it fair if that the driver wasn't given the opportunity to get a 'normal' PCN and assocaited discounted period etc.? For clarity, this is the location where the PCN shows the car to be. That's what I can find on instant street view anyway - I should say though that the instant view pics are pretty old, both in that the properties on the left are now a row of new-builds, and that where in the ISV pics there are no 'parking bays' on the right, there are now parking bays with 'Resident permit holders only Mon-Sat 8am-7.30 pm', as shown in one of the the PCN pics, where the car is shown to be. I'm confused now - where does the driver stand in all of this? As always, thanks in advance. |
|
|
Advertisement |
Tue, 6 Oct 2020 - 20:26
Post
#
|
Advertise here! |
|
|
|
Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 14:20
Post
#21
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 8 Mar 2018 Member No.: 96,940 |
Urm, can I just check if I've done it correctly for a 'formal representation', I've just used the 'contact us' button on the Birmingham's PCN website (after putting in PCN details) and submitted the wording you guys have suggested. As I wanted to double check I looked at the NTO again and the URL for online representations actually dosen't exist and the same is referenced in several places on the NTO (looks like its changed slightly)!
|
|
|
Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 14:29
Post
#22
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
You must make reps in a way specified by the NTO or you risk it going astray.
|
|
|
Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 14:50
Post
#23
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 8 Mar 2018 Member No.: 96,940 |
So would you suggest then representations to be sent by post (Signed For sufficient)? Should we not be sticking it to the council too that the URL on the PCN dosen't exist!!
|
|
|
Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 14:59
Post
#24
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
The URL https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/pcn works for me. Did you try the challenge button? Some systems do have separate challenge and formal buttons I agree.
|
|
|
Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 15:26
Post
#25
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 8 Mar 2018 Member No.: 96,940 |
My bad, you're right, it does work but is a high-level page, and when you follow through it takes you to Challenge or view your PCN > Submit your challenge or make payment > Input PCN details and hit 'search' > opens up PCN details with three buttons of 'Contact Us', 'Payment' and 'View Evidence'. I chose 'Contact Us' which simply opens a free-text box (dosent let you pick grounds for appeal and such), and then the following page to upload any evidence before clicking submit. I take it that satisfies how they want reps to be put in?..
|
|
|
Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 15:34
Post
#26
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
My bad, you're right, it does work but is a high-level page, and when you follow through it takes you to Challenge or view your PCN > Submit your challenge or make payment > Input PCN details and hit 'search' > opens up PCN details with three buttons of 'Contact Us', 'Payment' and 'View Evidence'. I chose 'Contact Us' which simply opens a free-text box (dosent let you pick grounds for appeal and such), and then the following page to upload any evidence before clicking submit. I take it that satisfies how they want reps to be put in?.. Yes that looks like it covers it as there isn't anything else. It's always a good idea to take screenshots if there is no email receipt. |
|
|
Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 15:37
Post
#27
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 8 Mar 2018 Member No.: 96,940 |
Okay thanks, let's wait and see then what the council have to say.
|
|
|
Sat, 28 Nov 2020 - 19:02
Post
#28
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 8 Mar 2018 Member No.: 96,940 |
All,
Apologies for the delay on this, been fairly busy since this NoR came in and conscious that I don't have long till the clock runs out. Notice of Rejection received, CEO notes claim PCN was 'accepted by driver' who 'returned' but notes was 'polite'. a) I have no recollection of this (and I'd probably have been 'livid' given the circumstances and not polite!) b) (although I concede the 'contravention' occured) I noted a few things on the NoR from doing a bit of background reading on this forum: i) CEO's notes say 'the driver' - is this correct wording, and with the car empty how would he have established 'the person appearing to be in control of the vehicle'? ii) While the NoR says it was 'handed to the driver' - the CEO's notes do not explicity say this and instead say 'accepted by the driver' - are the terms interchangeable? (not in my interpretation!) iii) The times look a bit off in terms of when the 'notes' were entered, it seems the notes were typed shortly after 16:13, even though the PCN issued / observation end time is 16:18 or 16:21 (unless that's just how the notes print). FYI the gap in the 'notes' is just that - it is empty and nothing has been redacted other than the reg before the date print '26/08/2020'. iv) No photos have been furnished of the 'printed PCN' or the 'PCN being handed over' v) Is the wording in the rest of the PCN in relation to the 28-day appealing/paying period correct. i.e. 'from' and 'after' - I've seen on other posts where it's been suggested the correct wording is 'within' Please advise. Reading between the lines, I can only assume it's a case of mistaken identity (if the CEO is being genuine), and given it is a row of 'new builds' and hence 'visitors of new residents', perhaps he/she had a verbal conversation with someone else they were ticketing (as I've since learnt from others that parking on the road is a real issue and the nearest 'paid bays' are quite some distance away)? Thanks again. This post has been edited by hustler6969: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 - 19:05 |
|
|
Sat, 28 Nov 2020 - 20:11
Post
#29
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 35,061 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Nope, I was the driver, and am the owner and keeper, and no PCNs handed over. But the council do not believe you, based on the CEO's notes. As I posted much earlier.... If in their inevitable rejection they say it was given to the driver, then your grounds of appeal are clear and it would be your word against that of the CEO, so essentially a matter of credibility. Nothing's changed. |
|
|
Sat, 28 Nov 2020 - 20:35
Post
#30
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 8 Mar 2018 Member No.: 96,940 |
How do I phrase my appeal to the tribunal then, and do any of my other points hold any water?
|
|
|
Sat, 28 Nov 2020 - 21:18
Post
#31
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
How do I phrase my appeal to the tribunal then, and do any of my other points hold any water? You have until Wednesday to register your appeal, This is not much time for one of us to review the thread and suggest an appeal. I suggest that you register your appeal with the tribunal elect a telephone hearing and try to pick a date after Xmas in the evidence box write full submission to follow The tribunal will then allocate a date and tell you by when your evidence needs be submitted let us know straight away by posting the letter -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
|
|
|
Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 10:01
Post
#32
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 8 Mar 2018 Member No.: 96,940 |
Okay thanks I've logged the appeal now.
|
|
|
Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 18:47
Post
#33
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Keep an eye on the tribunal website. If the council choses to contest the appeal it will upload the evidence on the evidence tab, if this happens download everything and put it in a google drive or dropbox folder so we can have a look.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Fri, 19 Feb 2021 - 15:03
Post
#34
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 8 Mar 2018 Member No.: 96,940 |
Hi all, its been a while and I've had some personal stuff going on. Checked in with them by phone a while ago and was asked to just wait to hear back regarding a hearing date - have heard back recently and just settled for a 5th Mar hearing..
Here is what the council have uploaded: basically not a great deal new than before. I am not sure if a case of mistaken identity regarding 'handing over to the driver' (maybe multiple PCNs issued at the same time / surrounding area ?), or just a lie and no PCN handed/issued to anyone? Please can you chime in with your thoughts.. This post has been edited by hustler6969: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 - 16:40 |
|
|
Sat, 20 Feb 2021 - 08:46
Post
#35
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Do you have any witnesses who can corroborate your version of events?
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Sat, 20 Feb 2021 - 12:59
Post
#36
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 8 Mar 2018 Member No.: 96,940 |
Hi cp8759, how might you be proposing they ‘corroborate’ the version of events - would they have to participate in the hearing for example?
|
|
|
Sat, 20 Feb 2021 - 20:53
Post
#37
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Hi cp8759, how might you be proposing they ‘corroborate’ the version of events - would they have to participate in the hearing for example? Either that or a witness statement, but if you want a realistic prospect of success you'd want them to attend a hearing and be prepared to be questioned by the adjudicator. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Mon, 22 Feb 2021 - 13:05
Post
#38
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 8 Mar 2018 Member No.: 96,940 |
If you think that might help (I'd rather not), I can get them to attend the hearing. How do I facilitate that though - let the tribunal know that I'd like a witness to attend?
Do I need to be armed/prepped with anything else for the hearing?.. |
|
|
Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 11:25
Post
#39
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
If you think that might help (I'd rather not), I can get them to attend the hearing. How do I facilitate that though - let the tribunal know that I'd like a witness to attend? Yes it would definitely help, a lot. Do I need to be armed/prepped with anything else for the hearing?.. Not really, I suppose you could ask the council to get the CEO to attend the hearing (they won't, but it shows you've tried). -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Sun, 28 Feb 2021 - 17:41
Post
#40
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 8 Mar 2018 Member No.: 96,940 |
Okay, I'm getting a witness to attend - I've given tribunal details by message on the portal to arrange.
As for the CEO attending, I've messaged them through the portal to ask the council to get the CEO to attend, and basically uploaded a PDF under evidence with a one line statement to ask the same. Any other way you wanted me to 'show I've asked'? Cheers This post has been edited by hustler6969: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 - 17:41 |
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 17:55 |