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[NIP Wizard] Should I pay or fight?
M1R2A
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:02
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - December 2017
Date of the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - At M25 Junction 15 to 16, IVER
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Road works on M25 at 23:43. I was under the impression they are fixing lights as well as cameras on test. Also sign were not clear but according to the pictures limit was 40 and I was doing 55

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:02:18 +0000
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post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:02
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mazzer
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:18
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What do you mean by "sign were not clear"?

This post has been edited by mazzer: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:18
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Jlc
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:18
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QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:02) *
I was under the impression they are fixing lights as well as cameras on test.

Neither of which assist you.

QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:02) *
Also sign were not clear but according to the pictures limit was 40 and I was doing 55

You'll have to explain a bit more - the speed limit is shown on the pictures? (HADECS3 do snap the prevailing limit for the avoidance of doubt)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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M1R2A
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:52
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QUOTE (mazzer @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:18) *
What do you mean by "sign were not clear"?


As there were road works and I am sure were driving on the outside lane. My understanding were they were fixing lights etc.


The signage provided by the police states 40

QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:18) *
QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:02) *
I was under the impression they are fixing lights as well as cameras on test.

Neither of which assist you.

QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:02) *
Also sign were not clear but according to the pictures limit was 40 and I was doing 55

You'll have to explain a bit more - the speed limit is shown on the pictures? (HADECS3 do snap the prevailing limit for the avoidance of doubt)

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NewJudge
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:57
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QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:52) *
As there were road works and I am sure were driving on the outside lane. My understanding were they were fixing lights etc.


The signage provided by the police states 40


It's still not clear. On what basis are you thinking of contesting this? Are you saying the speed limit was not clearly displayed or are you saying you were not exceeding it?
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M1R2A
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:59
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Does the attached help?

QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:52) *
QUOTE (mazzer @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:18) *
What do you mean by "sign were not clear"?


As there were road works and I am sure were driving on the outside lane. My understanding were they were fixing lights etc.


The signage provided by the police states 40

QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:18) *
QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:02) *
I was under the impression they are fixing lights as well as cameras on test.

Neither of which assist you.

QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:02) *
Also sign were not clear but according to the pictures limit was 40 and I was doing 55

You'll have to explain a bit more - the speed limit is shown on the pictures? (HADECS3 do snap the prevailing limit for the avoidance of doubt)



Attached File(s)
Attached File  DEVICE_bb36265e_d873_473d_aa6d_899dce8c8ace.pdf ( 358.99K ) Number of downloads: 233
 
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BaggieBoy
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:11
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QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:59) *
Does the attached help?

Nope, why would a random calibration certificate help?
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Jlc
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:25
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:11) *
QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:59) *
Does the attached help?

Nope, why would a random calibration certificate help?

Well it confirms it was HADECS 3.

This system generally has an auxiliary camera snap of the actual speed signs. Arguing they were not present or insufficient would be futile.

I'm not getting the relevance of fixing lights. (Unless there was a requirement for signs to be lit at night - but the HADECS3 limits don't need that)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:39


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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M1R2A
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:46
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Is the calibration not out of date or so as if it was done over 11 months ago?

QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:25) *
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:11) *
QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:59) *
Does the attached help?

Nope, why would a random calibration certificate help?

Well it confirms it was HADECS 3.

This system generally has an auxiliary camera snap of the actual speed signs. Arguing they were not present or insufficient would be futile.

I'm not getting the relevance of fixing lights. (Unless there was a requirement for signs to be lit at night - but the HADECS3 limits don't need that)

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peterguk
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:48
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QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:46) *
Is the calibration not out of date or so as if it was done over 11 months ago?


Who knows? Not seen the cetrtificate for the device that measured your speed.

Would the date affect your measured speed?

What defence are you trying to run? Signage? Speed measurement? You were not speeding?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:52


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M1R2A
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:53
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In received the NIP before XMAS and panicked so sent it back asap due to post delay because of XMAS/New year. Now got the "Conditional Offer of fixed Penalty". If this information helps?

QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:48) *
QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:46) *
Is the calibration not out of date or so as if it was done over 11 months ago?


Who knows? Not seen the cetrtificate for the device that measured your speed.

Would the date affect your measured speed?

What defence are you trying to run? Signage? Speed?

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Logician
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 17:00
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Are you sating this was actually the camera that got you? Assuming the calibration certificate is valid for a year, in that case it was in that period when you were caught, and if it was outside the period it would be unlikely to help anyway. I have never heard of anyone successfully fighting an allegation of speeding on the basis that the calibration was out of date, it is a bit of a myth.


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M1R2A
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 17:31
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Yes motorway camera.

QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 17:00) *
Are you sating this was actually the camera that got you? Assuming the calibration certificate is valid for a year, in that case it was in that period when you were caught, and if it was outside the period it would be unlikely to help anyway. I have never heard of anyone successfully fighting an allegation of speeding on the basis that the calibration was out of date, it is a bit of a myth.

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NewJudge
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 17:45
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QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 16:53) *
In received the NIP before XMAS and panicked so sent it back asap due to post delay because of XMAS/New year. Now got the "Conditional Offer of fixed Penalty". If this information helps?


Now we're getting somewhere.

You have been offered a Fixed Penalty to deal with the matter. Assuming you have fewer than nine points on your driving record you will be eligible to accept it. If you want to do so you must pay £100, send in your licence and you will have three points added to your driving record.

If you don't want to accept it you can refuse the Fixed Penalty. It will then be dealt with in the court process. You must then choose whether to plead guilty or not guilty. There is no point in refusing the fixed penalty and then pleading guilty in court as it will cost you far more than £100. It may also mean more than three points, depending on the speed alleged (which you have not told us). If you intend to plead Not Guilty you need to have a reason for doing so that gives you a good chance of success. So far you have not suggested anything along those lines and if you are found guilty following a trial the fine and costs will run into many hundreds of pounds.
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Jlc
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 17:47
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I’d be accepting that CoFP unless you can identify a defence - you don’t seem to be answering the questions...

NJ - 55 in a 40 (clean licence)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 17:48


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 18:26
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 17:47) *
NJ - 55 in a 40 (clean licence)


Thanks, jlc. I'd missed that.

A guilty plea in court will cost you a third of a week's net income, plus £85 costs and a surcharge of 10% of the fine (Min £30, Max £170). So you can see that the surcharge and costs alone will exceed £100 before the fine is considered. A failed Not Guilty plea will see a fine of half a week's income, the same 10% surcharge and costs of up to £620. Both options will see three points.

Unless you have a viable defence (and you have still not indicated that you might have) accepting the fixed penalty is the way to go.
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mazzer
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 18:37
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QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:52) *
As there were road works and I am sure were driving on the outside lane. My understanding were they were fixing lights etc.


It would help if you could answer these simple questions:

1. Which lanes had a 40 limit displayed above them.
2. Do you dispute you went past the camera at 55mph?
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M1R2A
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 16:09
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1. Fast and middle, I was in slow lane
2. I was doing over 40

QUOTE (mazzer @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 18:37) *
QUOTE (M1R2A @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 15:52) *
As there were road works and I am sure were driving on the outside lane. My understanding were they were fixing lights etc.


It would help if you could answer these simple questions:

1. Which lanes had a 40 limit displayed above them.
2. Do you dispute you went past the camera at 55mph?



This is good info, thanks!

QUOTE (NewJudge @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 18:26) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 17:47) *
NJ - 55 in a 40 (clean licence)


Thanks, jlc. I'd missed that.

A guilty plea in court will cost you a third of a week's net income, plus £85 costs and a surcharge of 10% of the fine (Min £30, Max £170). So you can see that the surcharge and costs alone will exceed £100 before the fine is considered. A failed Not Guilty plea will see a fine of half a week's income, the same 10% surcharge and costs of up to £620. Both options will see three points.

Unless you have a viable defence (and you have still not indicated that you might have) accepting the fixed penalty is the way to go.

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peterguk
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 16:15
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Do we have individual lane speed restrictions?


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Logician
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 16:49
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 16:15) *
Do we have individual lane speed restrictions?


I do not think we do



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