Hackney CC NRT PCN Options

[Mad Hatter]

Hi,

I drive in London for a living and normally drive alert. I got this PCN from Hackney and cannot recall seeing the sign, it was junction of Nuttall St and Hoxton St

I looked at the location on street view and can only think I missed it as there is a zebra crossing very close to it and May be the flashing beacon my have obscured the NRT sign.

Are there any grounds for an appeal?









Thank you

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[Mad Mick V]

OP--- the PCN needs to specify the nature of the contravention---no right turn. It doesn't--- so how could a visitor to that area know what he is being accused of?
Mick

[stamfordman]

I live near there and have never noticed a no left turn (it's not a no right) into the market (which is only closed to traffic on Saturday) - it does seem inadequately signed.

So two points of appeal - poor signage and that PCN doesn't specify the no left turn.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 12 Aug 2018 - 14:36

[gbawekanu]

I just received a PCN for the exact contravention Mad Hatter at Nuttall Street with the exact wording.



I have watched the CCTV evidence on Hackney Council's website and it only showed me turning left but did not show me passing through the "No Left Turn" sign, could this be a ground for appeal?

Have you appealed Mad Hatter?

Any help with the draft for the appeal would be sincerely appreciated.

[stamfordman]

You need to start a new thread for your case.


It was an experimental order but Hackney made it permanent in 2016:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2616518

[cp8759]

what's the date of the PCN?

[Mad Hatter]

I just received a PCN for the exact contravention Mad Hatter at Nuttall Street with the exact wording.



I have watched the CCTV evidence on Hackney Council's website and it only showed me turning left but did not show me passing through the "No Left Turn" sign, could this be a ground for appeal?

Have you appealed Mad Hatter?

Any help with the draft for the appeal would be sincerely appreciated.

Sorry not yet, had op last week on dominant shoulder and just above to do things left handed without pain.

[Mad Hatter]

Managed to cobble together a defence, would more informed members please advise if good to go?

Thank you in advance


Ground 1: The amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case: The PCN does not state the grounds on which the enforcement authority believe a penalty charge is payable:

Although these proceedings are civil in nature, it is a long established principle of law that anyone accused of wrongdoing must be given unambiguous particulars of the nature of the accusation he faces. The penalty charge served by the enforcement authority does not specify whether the prohibited turn is a left turn, a right turn or a u-turn, it simply states “50 Performing a prohibited turn”

While previous decisions are not binding they can be persuasive and I submit Austin Biesty v London Borough of Brent (case reference 2130412623) as persuasive authority in this instance. In that case the tribunal held that:

“The Penalty Charge Notice ('PCN') in this case describes the alleged traffic contravention as Failing to comply with a sign indicating a prohibited turn. However, the PCN fails to particularise what turn is prohibited, left or right. Also, whilst the Penalty Charge Notice ('PCN') includes superimposed pictures, it is impossible to see in the copy filed any actual traffic sign(s) that the appellant is alleged to have failed to comply with and there is no copy of the sign(s) themselves superimposed on the PCN.

In the circumstances, I find that the PCN is invalid and unenforceable as it fails to comply with the requirements of section 4(8)(a)(i) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 ('LLA & TFL Act 2003'), which states that the PCN "must (a) state (i) the grounds on which the council...believe that the penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle".

In these circumstances, I must allow this appeal.”

In this case, as in Austin Biesty v London Borough of Brent, the PCN fails to particularise what turn is prohibited and the signs which are alleged to have been contravened are not visible on the PCN.

It follows that the PCN in this case also fails to comply with section 4(8)(a)(i) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 and the appeal must be allowed.
Ground 2: The amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case: The PCN does not particularise the location of the alleged contravention:

The Ordinence Survey website shows that Nuttall street extends for approximately 0.5 miles from the junction with Kingsland Road in the East to the junction with Hoxton Street in the West, along its length it intersects approximately 5 junctions and the PCN does not specify where on Nuttall Street the contravention is said to have occurred. In addition according to Google Maps and A to Z of London, 4 of those intersections of Nuttall street are also named Nuttall Street I would respectfully argue it is inherently impossible for a defendant to establish exactly at which point along Nuttall Street the alleged contravention occurred based on the PCN.

I submit Matthew Kelly v London Borough of Harrow (case reference 216029138A) as persuasive authority:

“Mr Kelly has appeared in person with his son, Mr Sean Kelly.
This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being in a bus lane in Northolt Road Northbound at 12.49pm on 12 March 2016.
Mr Kelly appeals because he says that the PCN does not sufficiently identify the location of the alleged contravention. His evidence shows that there are 5 camera enforcement locations in Northolt Road.
Although the Council says in its case summary that the location is Northolt Road at the junction with Shaftesbury Avenue, this is not clear from the PCN.
The PCN must state the grounds on which the Council believe that the penalty charge is payable. Those grounds must be expressed in terms that allow the recipient of the PCN to know not just the nature of the alleged contravention but exactly where it is said to have occurred. I agree with Mr Kelly that this PCN did not sufficiently identify the location of the alleged contravention and I allow the appeal for this reason.”

I aver that the PCN does not allow the recipient to understand where on Nuttall Street the allegation is said to have occurred and the appeal must therefore be allowed.
From having reviewed the route on google maps, I am assuming the alleged contravention could possibly be at the junction with Hoxton Street. I would aver
Ground 3 The Road marking and signage in this case is inadequate

My contention is that the “No Left Turn” signage would be obstructed on the approach to the junction and this alone was insufficient to inform a diligent motorist that there is a no left turn ahead. I would contest the signage is immediately behind a flashing zebra crossing that would make seeing the no turn at night very difficult as well as above the normal height for warning signs and the motorists field of vision. A diligent motorist approaching a junction would have the turn , the zebra crossing as well as other vehicles to content with and the No right turn is not sufficiently prominent as it is a single sign behind a busy zebra crossing. The Council should have used a sign on either side of the carriageway and put in a road marking to inform the motorist to turn to the right. Since I was not adequately informed I would argue that the Council has failed in its duty to comply with Reg 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996.

[cp8759]

Put the signage ground as ground 1, and re-number the other two to grounds 2 & 3. Use italics for quoted text, and bold for your ground headings, it makes it a lot easier to read. Other than that it looks good.

[StanH]

Hi

I received a PCN for the same alleged infringement. The date of the contravention was the 4th September.

I'm in the process of disputing it, so drove down Nuttall St again today in order to take a photo of the signage.

A NEW SIGN HAS BEEN INSTALLED. In addition to the original No Left Turn sign, there is now another about a metre lower in height and just half a metre from the curb.

This might help with any appeals, as it strongly suggests the Council were aware that the original signage was insufficient.

Hope this helps.

[Enceladus]

Hi

I received a PCN for the same alleged infringement. The date of the contravention was the 4th September.

I'm in the process of disputing it, so drove down Nuttall St again today in order to take a photo of the signage.

A NEW SIGN HAS BEEN INSTALLED. In addition to the original No Left Turn sign, there is now another about a metre lower in height and just half a metre from the curb.

This might help with any appeals, as it strongly suggests the Council were aware that the original signage was insufficient.

Hope this helps.

Have you got a photo of the new sign? If so, please post it up.
Also please open a new thread for your PCN if you haven't already.
Thanks,

[StanH]

Hi

I received a PCN for the same alleged infringement. The date of the contravention was the 4th September.

I'm in the process of disputing it, so drove down Nuttall St again today in order to take a photo of the signage.

A NEW SIGN HAS BEEN INSTALLED. In addition to the original No Left Turn sign, there is now another about a metre lower in height and just half a metre from the curb.

This might help with any appeals, as it strongly suggests the Council were aware that the original signage was insufficient.

Hope this helps.

Have you got a photo of the new sign? If so, please post it up.
Also please open a new thread for your PCN if you haven't already.
Thanks,

Find a very blurry image attached. I've also put in a FOI as i suspect the Council were quite aware that too many people were getting caught-out and/or they were losing too many appeals. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/no_l..._nuttall_st_int

[Mad Hatter]

Just had a letter dated the 26th September nearly a month after I submitted the appeal sent to the reg keeper saying recd appeal from 3rd party but cant consider it without his consent and to either send in written authorisation or pay the PCN.

Is there a legal time limit for them to consider the appeal?

[stamfordman]

I stopped to take a couple of pics the other day and posted these in the other threads - the new sign has already been knocked around. I don't understand the reason for the no left you can still enter the market coming the other way, and it's only a pedestrian zone on Saturday.

[cp8759]

Just had a letter dated the 26th September nearly a month after I submitted the appeal sent to the reg keeper saying recd appeal from 3rd party but cant consider it without his consent and to either send in written authorisation or pay the PCN.

Is there a legal time limit for them to consider the appeal?

If you're not the RK you have no standing. Get the RK to right back immediately asking that they consider the representations you have sent. If you don't do this promptly the charge could go up 50% and all avenues of appeal will be lost.

[Mad Hatter]

Just had a letter dated the 26th September nearly a month after I submitted the appeal sent to the reg keeper saying recd appeal from 3rd party but cant consider it without his consent and to either send in written authorisation or pay the PCN.

Is there a legal time limit for them to consider the appeal?

If you're not the RK you have no standing. Get the RK to right back immediately asking that they consider the representations you have sent. If you don't do this promptly the charge could go up 50% and all avenues of appeal will be lost.

I did that and sent the letter with proof of postage on the 5th October. today I received a charging notice dated 16th October but no rejection of appeal or anything like that?, can they do this?

[Mad Hatter]

Hi,

Now they have sent a charging notice before deciding my appeal.

Why do they say I have lost the 50% discount and can they do this?

Thanks

[PASTMYBEST]

post it

[Mad Hatter]

This the letter they sent.

I have only had the PCN and 3rd party authorisation before this.

Can they do this?

[cp8759]

Can they do this?

Probably, show us the second letter (the one stating they need the RK's authorisation to consider your appeal) and leave all dates visible.