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PPS and POPLA Appeal Failed - want £600 - Continuous Contravention
Ruikis
post Tue, 2 Aug 2022 - 12:41
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Hi All,

Posting for the first time, so apologies if I’ve got any of this wrong.

I live in an apartment building and pay a monthly fee for parking in addition to rent. I get an allocated parking space that no one else uses. This is all detailed in the tenancy agreement. The housing development has recently introduced parking permits to enter the garage, motivating with ‘it will prevent uninvited guests taking up residents’ parking spots’. The first permit failed to arrive on time, the second permit is a flimsy and large laminated sheet of A5 paper that is supposed to be hanged off the rear view mirror. It is really distracting whilst driving, and really reflective if placed on the dash. They are supposed to issue new permits that will be stickers. As part of the permit scheme, they have contracted Private Parking Solutions to monitor the car park as of spring 2022. However, they didn’t provide them with a list of permanent residents, asking everybody to constantly display the permit that they have issued. They emailed to say that in case we or any of our guests receive a PCN for parking incorrectly, they will not be able to help us and we need to resolve this issue with the new ‘car park operator’, i.e. PPS.

PPS put up a sign in the car park stating ‘PRIVATE LAND, This car park is monitored 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week, Permit Holders Only, The Permit Must Clearly be Displayed on the Windshield, If you Fail to Comply, a £100 Parking Charge will be issued, reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days’.

Anyway, we were out travelling in early May. Whilst driving a lot on our trip, I have removed that flimsy large permit from hanging off the mirror to avoid distractions. When we came back to the garage, I locked the car and didn’t check and didn’t attend to the car for several days (8th to 16th May) as I was working from home afterwards. The car remained parked in my allocated parking space, until on the 16th May my lease company contacted and forwarded a part scanned invoice from PPS for the 8th May alleging that a contravention took place because there was no permit on display. I ran down to the car and noticed the permit face down on the passenger seat. I seem to vaguely remember placing the permit on the mirror and it may have fallen off or maybe left it accidently on the passenger seat and forgotten to hang it off the mirror completely. I picked it up on the 16th May and put it back up properly.

The next day, 17th May, another invoice was scanned and emailed to me from my lease company, and this started to occur daily for alleged contraventions that took place on the 8th May, 9th May, 10th May, 11th May, 13th May and 15th May. 6 PPS invoices in total, asking me to pay £600 or £360 at the reduced rate. I realize I'm an idiot for not checking up my car and getting all of this. But, they also clearly realized this is a gold mine and sent somebody down every day to take photos, which they did at least 24hrs apart, alleging that a new ‘parking period’ begins 24 hrs. This is not detailed anywhere on the signage! I was so stressed and considered paying to just get it out of my head, but it didn’t seem reasonable, so I contacted the lease company saying that I will appeal and that they should not pay the invoices on my behalf. I did not wait for the invoices to be issued in my name, before launching the appeal to PPS. They themselves have not identified me as the driver at any point, nor sent me the invoices as they should have done. But I knew if didn’t appeal they will simply get my name from the lease company in the next few days, as this is the standard process. Then they will bug me and finally take me to a small claims court, which they seem to do quite often based on reading some of the posts.

My PPS appeal failed straight away. In the appeal, have alleged that I pay the parking charge and provided documentation with the apartment administrator from my tenancy agreement, stating that I already pay for this allocated space, therefore I have not caused any obstruction and that I am a permit holder, but accidentally the permit was not on display, however, I have provided copies of the permit etc. etc. I guess I was naïve thinking that somebody at PPS would see this as reasonable.
After the appeal failed, I read from another post that this should at least be considered as a single continuous contravention, and that others faced with a similar situation had argued this successfully. With a glimmer of hope, I decided to pay the last invoice at the reduced rate of £60, collected the receipt and sent this with the appeal to POPLA for every single invoice, stating that I have already paid for the contravention. In my appeal, I have admitted that the car was parked continuously at the allocated of car park at the property during a single parking event from 14:00 8th May to 22:00 16th May. During this continuous event, the parking permit was not visible, but in the photos taken by the PPS, it can be seen to have not moved from the same exact spot during all this time whilst they kept coming back to take photos.

POPLA requested info from PPS. PPS wrote back stating that there was evidence of signage that states that failing to display a PARKING PERMIT will “result in the issue of a parking charge each 24 hours”. There is no such signage anywhere on display. Their sign simply states that the car park is monitored 24/7. PPS was suggesting to POPLA that I needed to re-display the permit every 24 hrs. This is clearly nonsense. However, I am aware that POPLA is ran by the same people and most appeals fail anyway. They rejected my appeal, saying that PPS is right and I need to pay the remaining invoices totalling £500.

Now PPS is rejoicing and have started to send letters and reminders for me to pay the £500, alleging that if I fail to pay in 28 days, they will request £850 from me. This is ridiculous, right? Or am I wrong?

My questions are as follows:

- How likely is PPS to take me to a small claims court? I hear they have stepped up their game in this lately?
- If extremely likely, should now pay the £500 remaining or would I instead be successful pleading with the judge that:
o They never identified me as the driver, I never received the original reduced rate offer PCN’s in my name. Their first comm to me was rejecting my appeals.
o Parking is agreed and paid with the landowner/tenancy company, I have a contract that shows that this parking space is allocated to me and I pay a monthly fee already. Asking me to pay more is double payment.
o The invoice was already paid for the alleged contravention which was continuous from 8-16th May.
o £600 total was an unreasonable amount to be wanting to claim from me? Plus extra ‘late charges’ which I’m sure will be added.
- Should I keep evidence of any others letters they send for the court case
- Is there any way I can stop them harassing me now until and if they decide to go to court, I guess not, but it is causing stress.

There’s no use pleading with the landowner as they simply don’t care and asked me to deal with PPS directly. Unless I can argue something else? PPS also provided me with the letter of the contract with the landowner, I am not sure if that helps in any way, I can upload it here. I can also upload any photos or signage if it helps. I really appreciate any help or comments. Don’t scold me too much if I’ve done wrong things in the process.

Thank you,
Ruikis

This post has been edited by Ruikis: Tue, 2 Aug 2022 - 13:29
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post Tue, 2 Aug 2022 - 12:41
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thevaliant
post Fri, 5 Aug 2022 - 21:29
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Phew, this is a mess isn't it?

So your Freeholder (I'll just call them that) have managed (as they often do) to sell the space twice. Once to you, and again to PPS. Hilarious.

Your initial contract gives you use of the car parking spot, no permit required. So you are the landholder.
The later emails muddy the waters a bit, but not as bad as feared.

Firstly, by continuing to pay, you might be deemed to have accepted the new contract regarding parking regulations (or not.... I'm never happy with this. Each time Virgin Media change my contract, they tell me and say, "If you don't cancel the service, you're deemed to accept the new T&Cs....." I suspect they are right, but who really knows).

Now the killer. Lets say for a second, they HAVE changed the contract. Here's the problem:

1. They say you will be FINED. Firstly, as already noted, no private entity can FINE another. So that's defence number one. That alone is totally fatal, no wriggle room, no nothing. In theory a single point defence of 'private entities can't fine' should work every time..... but just in case....
2. The entity that COULD fine you is the FREEHOLDER. You don't have a parking contract with the PPC, only the Freeholder. If the Freeholder wants to introduce another party into the contract, the best and safest way to do this is a tripartite lease, with all three parties now agreeing to the lease. The freeholder, with you as lessee and PPS as the managing agent who you would agree to allow to collect the said 'fines'.

Finally, I suppose there is an unfair terms and conditions angle. You had a contract. It's been altered with no input from yourself in a seriously determential manner (your charge has potentially been increased by £100 (per day?) or £3,100 a month). That's not fair, and such a change may not stand up in court.

Once again, PPS (and your freeholder) are boneheads. It's a mixture of contract and land law, with a healthy dose of a freeholder trying to impersonate a statutory body (bad news) and throw in a bit of unfair terms and conditions.

Do I think you owe the money? Probably not, but you may need to be prepared to fight this hard.
Throw the kitchen sink at both parties. Demand the charge is cancelled, and throw this and everything already mentioned (around the 24 hour rule) into the mix.

I suspect they will back off if faced with a hard enough target, though I'm sure they'll say, "But don't do it again" as a closing shot to save face. Nobheads. Both of them.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 5 Aug 2022 - 22:29
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And tell them to cease trespassing on your space.
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Ruikis
post Sat, 6 Aug 2022 - 15:04
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Thank you thevaliant, nosferatu1001 and everybody that replied earlier, they are clearly a*holes for selling the space twice.

I am now slightly worried after the response from thevaliant that it could be quite complex to fight this with a lot of different angles because there are several different parties. Not unlike http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...43966&st=80 where PPS fought back very hard and this is still ongoing. In my case, I am obviously a tenant only, and there's a Management Company with whom my tenancy agreement was signed that have later imposed the permits. They contract the lease of the building with the freehold property landowner. The parking agreement with Private Parking Soluions was curated by the tenant Management Company but was ultimately signed by the freehold landowner. I am not sure how the triparty agreement between these entities works and how it alters any existing contracts with tenants, if at all.

Here's is my first draft of the legal letter below that I could send to Private Parking Solutions. I would appreciate any input/corrections as this is my first time drafting something like this. I hope it at least make some sense. I tried to include the arguments you have outlined, but apologies if anything was missed.

My questions: Once the draft is ready, should i send it by post (I supposed), plus email, plus might be beneficial to send it to the building management company (my landlord), plus to the actual property owner (the client that is referenced in the contract that PPS submitted to POPLA) as thevaliant said, throw everything at everybody? I suppose they have the power to ask PPS to cancel these invoices, if they wanted to, although it is unlikely that they will do. With this letter, should I include an extract from my tenancy contract and Parking Addendum, or is this too much at this point?

________________


"
PRIVATE PARKING SOLUTIONS
PO Box 1115, WEST DRAYTON, MIDDLESEX UB8 9XD
TEL: 01895713136
WWW.PRIVATEPARKINGSOLUTIONS.CO.UK
INFO@PRIVATEPARKINGSOLUTIONS.CO.UK

XXth August 2022

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:

Invoice Numbers: XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX

You need to stop all further communication regarding these invoices, as there is no agreement between defendant and property owner that suggests that me as the defendant (XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX) need to deal with Private Parking Solutions regarding parking provisions at XXXXXXXX XXXXX (building name/address).

In addition to that, payment of good will totalling £60 was made by the defendant on the XX of XXX 2022 to settle the invoices above for the alleged continuous contravention detailed in the invoices. Defendant continues to accept no liability for the contravention.

• The defendant avers that there was an absolute primacy of contract and entitlement to park deriving from the terms the tenancy agreement between the defendant and Management Company XXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX LTD for an allocated parking space XX at XXXXXXXX XXXXX, which is detailed in the Parking Addendum attached to the tenancy agreement between defendant and Management Company that manages XXXXXXXX XXXXX property as is contracted with property landowner XXXXXXXXXX (Jersey) C/O XXXXXXXXXX. For further information, please contact the landlord of the property or the management company.
• The Parking Addendum in the said agreement details all the obligations of the defendant that cannot be fettered by any alleged parking terms from the claimant Private Parking Solutions. The tenancy agreement provides the right to park a vehicle for a monthly payment of £XXX paid to the Management Company without the requirement to display a parking permit, nor does it set a financial penalty for a contravention to the conditions within the said lease.
• Section 14 of government code of practice states that ‘imposing a requirement on the resident of an apartment block to display a permit to park in contravention of their rights under their lease, or to ensure that free parking periods do not breach planning consents’.
• There is no legal right for PPS as the claimant to invoice me as defendant. I have no legal obligations to the claimant as the resident of this building. My obligation to the Management Company is detailed in the tenancy agreement and Parking Addendum only.
• The claimant PPS issued a number of invoices for one single alleged continuous contravention between dates of 8th to 16th May 2022, which can be evidenced by the photos taken by PPS. The vehicle did not move. There is no requirement to re-display the permit every 24 hrs. This is clearly referenced by signage provided by the claimant to POPLA. This is a clear and lawful argument why any further claims will be dismissed by the court of law.
• As a reminder, a payment of good will by for the total amount of £60 that was invoiced was paid by me on the XX of XXX 2022 for Invoice Numbers: XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX with the condition that all invoices are cancelled or considered paid.

It is therefore denied that:

- That there was any agreement between the defendant, Private Parking Solutions and your client XXXXXXXXXX (Jersey) C/O XXXXXXXXXX.
- That there was any obligation to display a permit.
- That there was any loss or damage suffered by the claimant or your client in respect of the parking provision that would have had the requirement to issue invoices : XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXX in succession.
- That the claimant had any legal obligation or right to issue a series of invoices detailed above for one continuous contravention.
- That PPS as the claimant or the client that you represent have any entitlement to the sums sought.

Quiet Enjoyment

To allow the defendant (subject to his complying with the terms of this lease) to hold and enjoy the property throughout the said term without any interruption by the Management Company or any person lawfully claiming through under or in trust for it.

Any further communication or letters threatening me with the claim against these invoice numbers will be treated as harassment. If you are doing so on the behalf of your XXXXXXXXXX (Jersey) C/O XXXXXXXXXX., you need to cease this activity immediately and refer the matter to the landlord until further notice.

If this case reaches court action, I will counterclaim against Private Parking Solutions for the invoice that was paid, as well as all reasonable expenses.

Signed:

"

This post has been edited by Ruikis: Sat, 6 Aug 2022 - 15:21
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hcandersen
post Sat, 6 Aug 2022 - 18:33
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Sorry OP, but you are on the wrong track.

This is simple.

Your TENANCY AGREEMENT requires you to register your vehicle: '...register your private motor vehicle'.

Did you register with the landlord?

If so, then the rest is b******s.

With respect to others, none of us is legally qualified and should not offer opinion on real property law, which is what this is. It has nothing to do with the PPC as such. Your space hasn't been 'sold twice'. It is clear from the email what the underlying problems are: bloody awkward tenants and their visitors parking all over the place. Nothing impacts YOUR space other than YOUR TENANCY AGREEMENT.

My advice: find a solicitor who understands the law of real property, don't argue the toss with morons, they're not worth it. Reply to them to keep them in the loop:
You have no jurisdiction over my parking place;
My tenancy obligations are to register my vehicle with **** which I have done;
I display, or try to display, your imperfect permit as best I can as a convenience to you, however, you have other data sources available to you to demonstrate that I am entitled to park in this space, my rights being limited only by my tenancy agreement, which is not with you;
As a precaution against you continuing this or future actions against me I am considering taking legal advice. If by return you acknowledge the primacy of my TENANCY AGREEMENT then I will not do so, failing which I will get this advice and seek to recover all costs from you and/or ****(whoever employed them).

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thevaliant
post Sat, 6 Aug 2022 - 21:05
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 6 Aug 2022 - 19:33) *
Sorry OP, but you are on the wrong track.

This is simple.

Your TENANCY AGREEMENT requires you to register your vehicle: '...register your private motor vehicle'.

Did you register with the landlord?

If so, then the rest is b******s.

With respect to others, none of us is legally qualified and should not offer opinion on real property law, which is what this is. It has nothing to do with the PPC as such. Your space hasn't been 'sold twice'. It is clear from the email what the underlying problems are: bloody awkward tenants and their visitors parking all over the place. Nothing impacts YOUR space other than YOUR TENANCY AGREEMENT.

My advice: find a solicitor who understands the law of real property, don't argue the toss with morons, they're not worth it. Reply to them to keep them in the loop:
You have no jurisdiction over my parking place;
My tenancy obligations are to register my vehicle with **** which I have done;
I display, or try to display, your imperfect permit as best I can as a convenience to you, however, you have other data sources available to you to demonstrate that I am entitled to park in this space, my rights being limited only by my tenancy agreement, which is not with you;
As a precaution against you continuing this or future actions against me I am considering taking legal advice. If by return you acknowledge the primacy of my TENANCY AGREEMENT then I will not do so, failing which I will get this advice and seek to recover all costs from you and/or ****(whoever employed them).


I'd agree with this.
The only point I'd make is that the claim is (so far) only for £600. I'm uncertain that a solicitor would cost less than that to defend unless you can expand the scope of a counterclaim such that legal costs can be recovered.

I might be tempted to DIY, though I do understand that the claim is (as usual) around land law, rather than contract.
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Ruikis
post Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 19:06
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 6 Aug 2022 - 19:33) *
Sorry OP, but you are on the wrong track.

This is simple.

Your TENANCY AGREEMENT requires you to register your vehicle: '...register your private motor vehicle'.

Did you register with the landlord?

If so, then the rest is b******s.

With respect to others, none of us is legally qualified and should not offer opinion on real property law, which is what this is. It has nothing to do with the PPC as such. Your space hasn't been 'sold twice'. It is clear from the email what the underlying problems are: bloody awkward tenants and their visitors parking all over the place. Nothing impacts YOUR space other than YOUR TENANCY AGREEMENT.

My advice: find a solicitor who understands the law of real property, don't argue the toss with morons, they're not worth it. Reply to them to keep them in the loop:
You have no jurisdiction over my parking place;
My tenancy obligations are to register my vehicle with **** which I have done;
I display, or try to display, your imperfect permit as best I can as a convenience to you, however, you have other data sources available to you to demonstrate that I am entitled to park in this space, my rights being limited only by my tenancy agreement, which is not with you;
As a precaution against you continuing this or future actions against me I am considering taking legal advice. If by return you acknowledge the primacy of my TENANCY AGREEMENT then I will not do so, failing which I will get this advice and seek to recover all costs from you and/or ****(whoever employed them).


Thanks for your input hcandersen and thevaliant. Yes the vehicle is registered with the landlord, I have the evidence of registration. The landlord also has my vehicle registration and vehicle photographs in their register.

So the advice is not to send the legal letter I have drafted earlier, but to redraft and send as hcandersen has written it, looping in the property management company, and maybe the landlord? Should I do that as soon as possible?

The unpaid claim currently stands at £500 (it was £600, but I paid the last of the 6 invoices of £100 (actual payment was £60 at the 'discounted rate' which has now expired)). However, they are likely to add £70 of 'debt recovery fees' x 5 per remaining 5 invoices that they mentioned of the invoices. Which means the total value of the debt they will likely want to enforce after 28 days when no payment is received is £850 total.

In regards to the solicitor, is this a sufficient amount to seek legal advice, what if the legal costs exceed the claim? I can see whatever is possible, but I have never done this. Any clue as to where to start with it or any recommendations?

This post has been edited by Ruikis: Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 19:08
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 19:27
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The legal costs will exceed the claim, and you're never going to get them claimed back from the other side, unless you can show they have behaved unreasonably
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hcandersen
post Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 19:57
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OP, I forgot to mention to copy in the MA.

This is a matter of principle: you have a tenancy agreement and you should assert your rights thereunder. What next, signs to say you can't walk on the cracks in the pavement?

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Ruikis
post Wed, 10 Aug 2022 - 08:50
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 20:57) *
OP, I forgot to mention to copy in the MA.

This is a matter of principle: you have a tenancy agreement and you should assert your rights thereunder. What next, signs to say you can't walk on the cracks in the pavement?

Thank you nosferatu1001 and hcandersen, so I will send out the letter to PPS and the Management Company, asserting my rights under the tenancy agreement.

Will update the thread when there are any new developments.

This post has been edited by Ruikis: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 - 08:52
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Ruikis
post Wed, 10 Aug 2022 - 11:09
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Hello again. The management company sent me the following email later this morning 'They have reduced the payment down to the original cost. I believe its £60 per citation. If you agree to this, it needs to be paid within 14 days'.

This means that there is £300 outstanding now (£60 x 5) and is the smallest amount they will ever 'try' and claim, before launching into a full scale offensive again. Does anybody have any advice on next steps? Should I try and push this back onto the Management Company as before?
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 10 Aug 2022 - 11:12
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Up to you

But if you load up, expect to be seen as an easy target.

You have to decide how you want to go forwards.
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