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Number plate fine, Decal number plate fine
Audia32011
post Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 17:41
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Hi all I have been given a 100 fine that I think is kind of invalid, its for a decal number plate on my car it is full size and bs standard reflective background, full size lettering, 11mm spacings and manufacturers name. I have been stopped 3 times by a standard police officer for my number plate he has no knowledge on number plate legislation at all. First time he stopped me he told me it was an mot failure. I argued the case and told him that it passed its mot. So he then left. Second time same officer stopped me. Said it was illegal and I asked why he said because it is a decal not a number plate. And told me it wasn't attached to the vehicle properly, I asked him to take it off and he couldn't. He then rang a traffic officer who then told me it would pass its mot and told me to remove it. I didn't. After that occurrence I did some looking around speaking to other officers and they said they couldn't see a problem with it as it was clearly visible. 3rd time he stopped me I told him I wanted his badge number and name so I could report him for harassment. He then give me a 100 fine and said it wasn't legal? But refused to tell me why. I reported him for harassment and that has been sorted, so he won't be bothering me anymore however I'm still getting fined because they can't do anything about it. How do I go about fighting this in court even the officer Sargent said he couldn't see anything wrong with it. Need some advice.

Many thanks
Shane
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post Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 17:41
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Spandex
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 10:19
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QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 09:05) *
All the testing requirements spoken here are of a supplier obligations, a trading standards matter not a matter to be enforced upon a consumer.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. The manufacturer has an obligation to obtain approval for the plates if they wish to display the BS AU mark, and the driver has an obligation to fit genuinely approved plates.

That being said, the fact that the plates are marked as approved would (I hope) be a good basis for a defence, assuming it even got that far.
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Darkatmosphere
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 10:55
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 10:19) *
QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 09:05) *
All the testing requirements spoken here are of a supplier obligations, a trading standards matter not a matter to be enforced upon a consumer.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. The manufacturer has an obligation to obtain approval for the plates if they wish to display the BS AU mark, and the driver has an obligation to fit genuinely approved plates.

That being said, the fact that the plates are marked as approved would (I hope) be a good basis for a defence, assuming it even got that far.

Urm NO. There is no law or obligation to purchase any type approved or to ensure any type approved plate is type approved pre fitting and then fitted, its on the supplier to ensure what he is advertising and selling and assuring to his customer that the purchase, is a genuine type approved plate.

The obligation the consumer has is to provide the correct details, as laid out on the V5C and proof of identity to obtain a registration plate and the supplier to check them if not Trading Standards has a field day with the supplier checking the hard drive of the print machine, it is the supplier that is then obligated to provide and supply a plate that conforms to the BSAU standard if that is what he/she is advertising and supplying if not trading standard has a field day with you and starts seizing your equipment, and plates material to prosecute you with.

The customer once displaying the reg mark on his vehicle must then conform to the Vehicle regulations as quite rightly the constable who believes it don't conform would have issued his ticket for and not for "failed to purchase and fit type approved plate"

Quite simply it can be supplied illegally, and be completely legal to display and keep as the consumer has no obligations to ensure that its tested and constructed to type approved BSAU standard, none what so ever.

This post has been edited by Darkatmosphere: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 11:22


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Spandex
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 11:25
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QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 10:55) *
The obligation the consumer has is to provide the correct details, as laid out on the V5C and proof of identity to obtain a registration plate, it is the supplier that is then obligated to provide and supply a plate that conforms to the BSAU if that is what he/she is advertising and supplying.

The law governing number plates (The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001) states that any number plate fitted to a vehicle must comply with BS AU 145d (or equivalent EU standard). That's it. Nothing about proof of identity or V5Cs. Nothing even about testing or certificates. Your plate either complies or you break the law.

Yes, under consumer law a supplier is obliged to deliver a product that is 'as described', but that doesn't somehow remove the obligation on the driver to comply with other regulations. Just because you have been put on the wrong side of the law unwittingly doesn't mean you're not on the wrong side of the law.

Someone telling you something is legal doesn't automatically shift the liability to them. You will still be liable for the law you break, and they might be liable for any laws they broke by lying to you.
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Darkatmosphere
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 11:53
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 11:25) *
QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 10:55) *
The obligation the consumer has is to provide the correct details, as laid out on the V5C and proof of identity to obtain a registration plate, it is the supplier that is then obligated to provide and supply a plate that conforms to the BSAU if that is what he/she is advertising and supplying.

The law governing number plates (The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001) states that any number plate fitted to a vehicle must comply with BS AU 145d (or equivalent EU standard). That's it. Nothing about proof of identity or V5Cs. Nothing even about testing or certificates. Your plate either complies or you break the law.

Yes, under consumer law a supplier is obliged to deliver a product that is 'as described', but that doesn't somehow remove the obligation on the driver to comply with other regulations. Just because you have been put on the wrong side of the law unwittingly doesn't mean you're not on the wrong side of the law.

Someone telling you something is legal doesn't automatically shift the liability to them. You will still be liable for the law you break, and they might be liable for any laws they broke by lying to you.

"obligation to fit" is what you were saying.

Fitting and FITTED TO is separate actions and descriptions you crossing both to mean the same and they don't, does the regulation say when purchasing or when fitting? or Fitted to only (as in its written sense, means in past tense or "the number plate fitted to the car" I.E already present and in place) and is not meant to be ("To fit to the car") If its already FITTED TO a vehicle then it has conform to the vehicle regulations. it doesn't when it is not fitted to the vehicle, there fore any action before such as the purchase, and the action "Fitting", has nothing to do with the regulations until such time of the "fitting" has been completed, then it is FITTED TO the car and in use/on the public road, the regulation applies from that moment.

Tests, bend tests nothing has anything to do with the regulation, its a supplier issue always will be, nothing to do with the road vehicles display of registrations the regulation isn't bothered about tests to get it type approved, its bothered about whether the regulations description of how a plate conforms fitted to a car is type approved markings and retroreflection specification been met whilst its on the car, yes or no?

I mean no disrespect at all here, all the OP has been given is a FPN under the regulations, nothing more, im concentrating on that, and I think the only thing the OP needs to know is if the retroreflective backing on his plate conforms, if it does then it satisfies the regulation and therefore should appeal to court.

This post has been edited by Darkatmosphere: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 12:20


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localdriver
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 12:20
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QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 11:53) *
Tests, bend tests nothing has anything to do with the regulation


To comply with the display regulations, the numberplate is required to comply with BS AU145d. So if it doesn't comply with BS AU145d, it doesn't comply with the display regulations either.

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The Rookie
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 12:32
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While I suspect the plate isn't legal, I suspect taking it to court and showing the BS number was on there, the details of the supplier from the website and that the officer isn't really sure why it isn't legal would see an acquittal. Even if not an acquittal, Special Reasons Not To Endorse (SRNTE) looks to have good legs.

I can't see the Police trying to remove it and proving it fails the bend test before court.......

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 12:45


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ford poplar
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 12:34
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I suggest we all suspend further comments until OP posts a close-up photo of number plate in situ on the car, as requested several times.
Plod can be wrong, so can the OP.
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Spandex
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 13:36
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QUOTE (localdriver @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 12:20) *
QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 11:53) *
Tests, bend tests nothing has anything to do with the regulation


To comply with the display regulations, the numberplate is required to comply with BS AU145d. So if it doesn't comply with BS AU145d, it doesn't comply with the display regulations either.

Bingo...
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Spandex
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 13:54
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QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 11:53) *
"obligation to fit" is what you were saying.

Fitting and FITTED TO is separate actions and descriptions you crossing both to mean the same and they don't, does the regulation say when purchasing or when fitting? or Fitted to only (as in its written sense, means in past tense or "the number plate fitted to the car" I.E already present and in place) and is not meant to be ("To fit to the car") If its already FITTED TO a vehicle then it has conform to the vehicle regulations. it doesn't when it is not fitted to the vehicle, there fore any action before such as the purchase, and the action "Fitting", has nothing to do with the regulations until such time of the "fitting" has been completed, then it is FITTED TO the car and in use/on the public road, the regulation applies from that moment.

Wow.

QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 11:53) *
Tests, bend tests nothing has anything to do with the regulation, its a supplier issue always will be, nothing to do with the road vehicles display of registrations the regulation isn't bothered about tests to get it type approved, its bothered about whether the regulations description of how a plate conforms fitted to a car is type approved markings and retroreflection specification been met whilst its on the car, yes or no?

It's not a supplier issue, because compliance with BS AU 145d (including those bend tests) is part of the regulations. The regulations apply to anyone driving a car on public roads. They don't apply to the supplier. The supplier is of course bound by various consumer laws, and would almost certainly be guilty of selling a defective plate if it didn't meet the standard it was advertised to, but that is a separate issue. If I bought a defective sensor that caused my speedo to under-read, I'd still be guilty of any speeding offences I racked up because of it.

QUOTE (Darkatmosphere @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 11:53) *
I mean no disrespect at all here, all the OP has been given is a FPN under the regulations, nothing more, im concentrating on that, and I think the only thing the OP needs to know is if the retroreflective backing on his plate conforms, if it does then it satisfies the regulation and therefore should appeal to court.

Not true. As above, the plate does not satisfy the regulations if it doesn't comply with BS AU 145d.

QUOTE (ford poplar @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 12:34) *
I suggest we all suspend further comments until OP posts a close-up photo of number plate in situ on the car, as requested several times.
Plod can be wrong, so can the OP.

Oh.
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baroudeur
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 14:09
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Simple solution?. Ask the supplier for details of the BS approval for the plate in question. It has to exist if the plate is to be legal.

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Spandex
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 17:12
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 14:09) *
Simple solution?. Ask the supplier for details of the BS approval for the plate in question. It has to exist if the plate is to be legal.

Well, the regs don't require a 'BS approval', and manufacturers aren't required to get any kind of 3rd party independent testing done on their plates. So a plate can be legal without an approval certificate, and an approval certificate can be written by the company that made the plate. Make of that what you will.
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 18:02
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 12:32) *
While I suspect the plate isn't legal, I suspect taking it to court and showing the BS number was on there, the details of the supplier from the website and that the officer isn't really sure why it isn't legal would see an acquittal. Even if not an acquittal, Special Reasons Not To Endorse (SRNTE) looks to have good legs.

I can't see the Police trying to remove it and proving it fails the bend test before court.......

It might if it was a standard plate, but in this case the OP has fitted something that is clearly different to the plates fitted to 99.999% of vehicles.

At the very least I think it would be reasonable to ask for fitting instructions to ensure it is attached to the vehicle in a legal manner - we all know the chav special of putting a legal plate in the corner of the windscreen. A BS compliant plate must be fitted correctly.

If the OP asked, or the supplier issued fitting instructions, then it is a stronger case.

I think the issue with the "genuine mistake" angle is that the magistrates are not stupid. They will know that he has fitted the plates to attract attention, and now he has got attention. There isn't a huge injustice to right, and magistrates are hardly known for their enthusiasm for car mods.
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cp8759
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 18:07
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Sun, 24 Mar 2019 - 12:40) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Sun, 24 Mar 2019 - 12:20) *
Which poses the question - how could a flexible plastic sheet comply?

Because the "backing plate" in this case is the body of the vehicle?

I don't think so, BS145a says:

11.2 Each sample unit shall be positioned in the
holding fixture and clamped as for impact testing
(see annex A), except that the end of the number
plate to be used for the deflection test shall extend
125 mm from the clamp bar (see figure 3). A test
mass, M, shall be attached, and suspended by means
of a clamp, from a point on the longitudinal centre
line of the number plate and 10 mm in from the
free-end. The total mass suspended from the plate
(including the mass, M, its suspension and its clamp)
shall be not less than 3 kg.

A vertical height gauge shall be positioned at the end
of the number plate to measure the deflection when
the 3 kg mass is applied (see figure 3).


and a sample unit is defined as:

3.8 sample unit
A pair of retroreflecting number plates within the
dimensions shown in figure 1, one with a white and
one with a yellow retroreflecting background, or in
the case of a motorcycle one only with a yellow
retroreflecting background, as used, complete with
between two and seven characters and in the format
and size specified in the appropriate regulations and
including a representative method of fixing where
appropriate.


I don't see how you could put the sample unit in the holding fixture unless you cut out a piece of the bodywork from the car (leaving the car with a number-plate shaped hole), but even if you went to such an extreme you'd fail anyway because you would have an element extraneous to the sample unit clamped into the holding fixture.

Being acquainted with the standard, I can't see how a stick-on plate could ever comply, not in a million years.


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Mr Rusty
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 19:18
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QUOTE
Being acquainted with the standard, I can't see how a stick-on plate could ever comply, not in a million years.


BS is not a testing house. The "testing house" for the vast majority of products on the market is the manufacturers themselves who self-certify that their products meet the relevant standards and directives. In many cases they will state things are compliant because their suppliers say the components they use are compliant. In most cases there is very little 3rd party testing going on. So if the manufacturer says it is compliant it IS compliant until someone spends a lot of money proving otherwise. Opinions count for nowt.

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Chester D
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 20:21
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QUOTE (Mr Rusty @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 20:18) *
QUOTE
Being acquainted with the standard, I can't see how a stick-on plate could ever comply, not in a million years.


BS is not a testing house. The "testing house" for the vast majority of products on the market is the manufacturers themselves who self-certify that their products meet the relevant standards and directives. In many cases they will state things are compliant because their suppliers say the components they use are compliant. In most cases there is very little 3rd party testing going on. So if the manufacturer says it is compliant it IS compliant until someone spends a lot of money proving otherwise. Opinions count for nowt.


"BSI offers a range of testing and certification services including new product development, pre-assessment, gap analysis, batch testing and full compliance testing. BSI – a Notified Body for CE marking and owner of the trusted Kitemark – has one of the widest testing and certification capabilities in the world giving you confidence in your products and helping you gain access to global markets."

BSI Group Product Testing
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Spandex
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 22:47
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QUOTE (Mr Rusty @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 19:18) *
So if the manufacturer says it is compliant it IS compliant until someone spends a lot of money proving otherwise.

This is simply not true. The compliance, or otherwise, of a plate is an absolute fact. Testing can ‘prove’ that fact, but it can’t change it.
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Mr Rusty
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 23:05
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without getting in to a long winded conversation about standards, you will find what BSI do as a test house is quite limited and highly focussed on certain sectors.

They get involved with management systems - e.g. environmental, quality management, and have a range of specific product services aimed primarily at achieving certifications for export markets https://www.bsigroup.com/en-GB/our-services...-certification/

For the vast majority of the hundreds of british standards, including those harmonized from EU and International (BS - EN and BS-EN-ISO) they do not offer any certification or validation services at all, and it is down to manufacturers either to self-certify or find an independent test house if they consider it necessary for their product. However the requirement to third-party validate is a commercial risk assessment and not a legal requirement.

This from the BSI information clarifies:-

What is a standard?

Our portfolio extends to more than 30,000 current standards. They are designed for voluntary use so it’s up to you – you’re not forced to follow a set of rules that make life harder for you, you’re offered ways to do your work better.

Standards are not law and are not compulsory certification scheme!
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Fredd
post Wed, 27 Mar 2019 - 07:18
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Perhaps understandably, the OP hasn't logged in since this "yes it is - no it isn't" argument started. The discussion has probabky long since ceased to be of any use to the OP, and certainly isn't providing them with the practical help which is the point of these advice threads. If there's a lengthy argument to be had about legal requirements then there are better parts of the forums in which to have it, away from specific case threads.


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Guest_Charlie1010_*
post Wed, 27 Mar 2019 - 08:57
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There is a requirement for the plate to be mounted vertically or, where that is not reasonably practicable, in a position as close to the vertical as is reasonably practicable.
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baroudeur
post Wed, 27 Mar 2019 - 10:04
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 17:12) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 14:09) *
Simple solution?. Ask the supplier for details of the BS approval for the plate in question. It has to exist if the plate is to be legal.

Well, the regs don't require a 'BS approval', and manufacturers aren't required to get any kind of 3rd party independent testing done on their plates. So a plate can be legal without an approval certificate, and an approval certificate can be written by the company that made the plate. Make of that what you will.


Perhaps it was worded badly? If a retailer is claiming conformity with BSAU145d there should be evidence that supports it from the suppliers of the material used. Most of the genuine" plates and backing material comes from the major companies involved (Hills/Bestplate/Jepson etc) and is marked appropriately. Or, as it appears, it's a case of some retailers doing their own thing and getting away with?

How would the police/courts decide that a plate does not conform? Surely, it cannot be based on opinion as opposed to proof? There are many threads on forums about 'illegal' plates but none seem to publish the results of a challenge in court.
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