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FightBack Forums _ Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices _ Road resurfaced and car moved to a permit zone

Posted by: nari Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 21:55
Post #1507305

Hey all

I Parked on a road, about 3 minutes from my home, that has no parking restrictions. I was parked there a little over a week before I came back to use the car. When I returned, my car was nowhere to be seen although i did notice that the road had been resurfaced. I called the council and was informed the car had been towed. When I went to collect the car I was informed by a member of staff that the car had been relocated in order for the road resurfacing to be completed. Unfortunately it was relocated to parking permitted zone and the car was subsequently ticketed a number of times before being towed.

I have been doing my own research but any help and information regarding the best way to challenge this would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks










Posted by: stamfordman Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 22:00
Post #1507307

QUOTE (nari @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 22:55) *
Unfortunately it was relocated to parking permitted zone and the car was subsequently ticketed a number of times before being towed.


Naughty council - this must be their fault and you should get your money back.

Was there any indication that you had a permit - e.g maybe an expired one on display?

Could they have easily relocated it to non permit road?

How many PCNs?

When did you park and when was tow?

Posted by: nari Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 22:10
Post #1507311

I forgot to mention that when we parked there there were no visible signage informing that there was going to be some work carried out on the road. Although i don't have any evidence to back this up.


no indication of a permit or expired permit etc

There are quite a few roads in the area without parking restrictions although i do not know about the availability of spaces at the time

3 PCNs in total

The time frame question is a little bit more difficult and im going to have to see if my son can remember those exact details but approximately a week and a half before it was towed

Posted by: Mad Mick V Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 07:05
Post #1507330

OP----IMO this is an abuse of process and completely unfair in that you have been penalised and more so deprived of your vehicle. The Council has acted wholly unreasonably and I would be looking to claim costs.

In essence one part of the Council acted correctly in relocating the vehicle but made an error in placing it in a permit zone. That mistake was exacerbated by removal of the vehicle (by the same tow truck?).

Here is the background to an abuse of process case in which the Council have acted unfairly and in prejudice of an appellant rights:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=90145&view=findpost&p=1450992

We need some sort of timeframe from you and why you didn't check your vehicle regularly.

Wait for others to comment since this needs to be a precise appeal.

Mick

Posted by: hcandersen Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 07:57
Post #1507350

1.Reinstate all date, times, locations and everything else except your personal information. As more than one PCN is involved, you should number them otherwise we'll lose track. And state clearly which of the PCNs is referred to in the release documents.

2. Get on to the council's website and see whether there are outstanding penalties and if so, give details.

Forget abuse of process for the moment pl, we're still finding facts.

So far you've posted 3 PCNs all for the same contravention NONE OF WHICH relates to the first removal. But whether any relate directly to the tow, we do not know. And as your car was removed to another place on a road, then where's this PCN??

You get my drift?

And how would we know what's the most urgent matter, we don't know any dates!!

Posted by: nari Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 15:40
Post #1507520

1st PCN (03/08)



2nd PCN (04/08)



PCN referred to in release form (07/08)



The release form



Authorised for removal slip





I went online and checked each of the three PCNs given to me when I collected the vehicle. The 1st and 2nd I could access and are outstanding. I can post screenshots of what I can view online if that would help? They both say "parked in a residents or shared use parking place or zone without clearly displaying a valid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or without payment of the parking charge' and they both have a number of pictures showing the car, where it was parked, etc.

I couldn't access the third PCN which was referred to in the release document, I presume, because it was paid on release.

As has been said, all three of these PCNs seem to be for the same contravention which was a result of the car being relocated, although, how and when the car was relocated is a mystery to me at this point.

As for why I didn't check my vehicle regularly, that would just be down to having no reason to use it for around a week - a week and a half. Unfortunately, I don't have a better reason than that


Don't know it helps but i put together a map showing where the car was originally parked and where it was the moved to -




Posted by: stamfordman Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 15:45
Post #1507523

So there was no PCN from the original parking place on car? Have you checked with council?

Posted by: nari Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 15:56
Post #1507532

There wasn't one when we retrieved the car from the impound but I will double check with the council

Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 16:48
Post #1507551

Can you please re-post the images using imgbb.com or imgur.com ? tinypic's servers are not working at the moment:


Posted by: nari Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 17:18
Post #1507560

Of course, here we are:

1st PCN (03/08)



2nd PCN (03/08)



PCN referred to in release form (07/08)



The release form



Authorised for removal slip



Map



Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 17:26
Post #1507564

We need an accurate timeframe, also have you checked the council website to see if there are any other outstanding penalties?

Posted by: nari Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 18:44
Post #1507580

Do I not need a PCN number to check an outstanding penalty online?

Otherwise ill have to speak with the council tomorrow, as I think their offices are closed now.

Posted by: stamfordman Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 18:50
Post #1507582

Some council systems will log all PCNs against a car VRM once you have logged in with one.

Posted by: hcandersen Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 09:26
Post #1507665

OP, let's try and get some clarity.

Your account makes no sense. Let me explain.

You parked your vehicle on **** (date.. which you've not told us!) on an unrestricted length of street 24/7. Yes?

You say that at some point this location became restricted and that your car was moved to location B. We do not know when.

At location B THREE PCNs were issued on 3, 4 and 7th August.

Car was removed to the pound on ***.

You recovered vehicle on *** on payment of £265 comprising £200 for tow and £65 for penalty in respect of PCN issued on ???


The contravention given in the three PCNs is the same and is NOT one which would be introduced to deal with resurfacing of a road, this would be no waiting and therefore NONE of the PCNs relates to the initial moving of your car.

If any of the PCNs at location B is lawful, then it is ONLY the first one, but this isn't the one apparently given in the release paperwork.

So I'm still lost by your account which has too many gaps.

Pl help.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 11:53
Post #1507726

h - my understanding is the car did not comit an offence at the first place - it was jsut relocated without a PCN.
Where it was relocated to had a permit system in place, and as the vehicle had no permit, that is what the PCNs are for.

Posted by: nari Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 12:18
Post #1507729

Timeline would be: Originally parked on the unrestricted road i marked in yellow on the map on the 31st July. At some point after this the car was moved and the road resurfaced. Then on the 3rd and 4th the car received the first 2 PCNs. On the 7th the car received another PCN and was ultimately towed. It wasn't until the 8th (when I actually had to use the car) that I found it was not where I had left it.

Ill check with the council today to find out if there is another outstanding PCN I don't know about. If there isn't another outstanding PCN, do I want to press the council to find out how the car was relocated to a permit zone in the first place?

thanks

Posted by: disgrunt Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 14:00
Post #1507755

Playing devils advocate, could you or somebody who drives your car used it and parked it in the residents spot by accident / being forgetful?

If I were you I’d want proof that the car was relocated for the resurfacing rather than relying on heresay.

Posted by: hcandersen Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 14:18
Post #1507760

h - my understanding is the car did not comit an offence at the first place - it was jsut relocated without a PCN.


With what lawful authority? None that I know of. Whereas a vehicle may be removed in different scenarios e.g. appears to be abandoned, has been issued with a PCN, only the latter allows moving to another place on a road.



Posted by: stamfordman Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 14:25
Post #1507762

So this was the road where you originally parked?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5886741,-0.0113406,3a,75y,347.08h,79.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-cN7WvV_b-uAyRTtW7254A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

It hasn't got a name it seems. Why?


Posted by: nari Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 14:58
Post #1507773

Well I guess I can't exactly prove that the car was not parked in the residents spot by accident.

Spoken to the council and they are saying that any evidence they may have of the car being moved can only be retrieved by emailing, or writing, to the same addresses used for making representations (wfpcn@nsl.co.uk or Parking Services, PO Box 9319, London, E17 7RX)

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 15:02
Post #1507780

A car is parked on a road it is committing no parking contravention nor is it causing an obstruction. But the council want to resurface the road. The come along see the car there and move it. Naughty and unlikely. But lets just pretend for a moment this is what happened.

So now the car is in contravention. The council may issue a PCN, they may even remove the vehicle after 30 minutes but what they cannot do is issue 3 PCN's and then remove


So the vehicle was authorised for removal on the 7th and I am guessing this is the PCN you paid.


But I am with HCA there is no lawful authority to move your vehicle in the first place unless a TTRO has been enacted and this is likely. It could be that the contractors were tasked with placing the required notice and sign and just did not bother until the day, so that is the reason your car was moved to another place not the pound. You need to find out exactly what happened or we can deal with these we no of and then another will pop up and that other can be your saviour because it is evidence that the vehicle was left in that place without the consent of the owner


Only by asking the council will you get this information.


Number of all PCN's outstanding against the VRM then copies please then all photos taken at time of service

Posted by: hcandersen Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 15:07
Post #1507781

But lets just pretend for a moment this is what happened.


Don't tell the council's Risk Management Officer smile.gif

Some things that seem seductively attractive and without risk at the time often come back to bite one in the a**e!

Posted by: Mad Mick V Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 15:11
Post #1507784

OP----What is the name of the road where you parked originally and where the resurfacing took place?

If it was covered by a Temporary Traffic Order, which appears likely, then you might have another PCN for that road and that would provide the Council authority to relocate your vehicle. You might be lucky and not have a PCN but the Council could still remove subject to the terms of the Order.

Mick



Posted by: hcandersen Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 15:17
Post #1507788

I think we're going over well-trodden territory here.

OP, only you can give us the info we need.

Posted by: nari Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 15:55
Post #1507798

Thanks for all the input, reckon I'd be lost right now without this forum!


Okay, so as I mentioned the council has told me the only way to request information or evidence regarding any PCNs is via email or post.

This is the email I've quickly drafted "I am writing to request copies of all PCN's outstanding against the Vehicle Registation Number - KD03 CLZ and all photographic evidence taken at time of service. I require these documents ASAP, so that i have reasonable time in which to launch any challanges."

Just wondering if there's anything I should be aware of before sending this off?



Posted by: stamfordman Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 16:25
Post #1507802

Still gaps:

what as name of road that you originally parked on?

how did the person in the pound know car was relocated? When I went to collect the car I was informed by a member of staff that the car had been relocated in order for the road resurfacing to be completed

Posted by: cp8759 Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 17:20
Post #1507819

QUOTE (nari @ Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 16:55) *
Thanks for all the input, reckon I'd be lost right now without this forum!


Okay, so as I mentioned the council has told me the only way to request information or evidence regarding any PCNs is via email or post.

This is the email I've quickly drafted "I am writing to request copies of all PCN's outstanding against the Vehicle Registation Number - KD03 CLZ and all photographic evidence taken at time of service. I require these documents ASAP, so that i have reasonable time in which to launch any challanges."

Just wondering if there's anything I should be aware of before sending this off?

The second phrase is unnecessary, you don't need to tell them why you want the photos. I would send something more like this:

---------

Dear London Borough of Waltham Forest,

I am writing to request a list of all PCNs outstanding against the Vehicle Registration KD03 CLZ and all photographic evidence taken at time of service. Please note this is only a request for information, this is not a representation.

Yours faithfully

Posted by: Gert Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 20:53
Post #1507870

If the LA or other body need to undertake emergency repairs where the bay isn't already signed up with a parking suspension sign and they need your car out of the way, a PCN code 21will be issued which allows them to relocate it. The PCN would then be cancelled as its an administrative exercise. If the bay WAS signed up then the PCN is enforced.

If they shift the vehicle to a location where PCNs might subsequently get issued, it would be common courtesy to cancel them as the driver didn't put the car there, but courtesy may be in short supply.

The CEOs should have recorded on the code 21 PCN the details of where they relocated your car to, which should be used to inform the decision making of the PCNs you didn't instigate. The notes would say something like "Tow truck Xx99 called 10.30. Attended 11.05. Vehicle moved to RPHO bay on Doodah St. You need to obtain those details to make sense of what they did and when and to prove you didn't park in the PCN 12s bay.

Posted by: hcandersen Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 21:14
Post #1507883

But this is speculation and covering previous ground.

The law is clear.

What is unclear is the facts.

OP, over to you.

Posted by: nari Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:44
Post #1507998

thanks everyone guess its just a case of waiting for the council to get back to my email now

Posted by: rosturra Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:35
Post #1508020

QUOTE (nari @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:44) *
thanks everyone guess its just a case of waiting for the council to get back to my email now


In the meantime. Answer SM's questions!

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 17:25) *
Still gaps:

what as name of road that you originally parked on?

how did the person in the pound know car was relocated? When I went to collect the car I was informed by a member of staff that the car had been relocated in order for the road resurfacing to be completed


Posted by: nari Thu, 29 Aug 2019 - 13:12
Post #1511341

QUOTE (rosturra @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 12:35) *
QUOTE (nari @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:44) *
thanks everyone guess its just a case of waiting for the council to get back to my email now


In the meantime. Answer SM's questions!

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 17:25) *
Still gaps:

what as name of road that you originally parked on?

how did the person in the pound know car was relocated? When I went to collect the car I was informed by a member of staff that the car had been relocated in order for the road resurfacing to be completed



The road I parked on is shown on the annotated map in yellow, although from what i can see it doesn't have an official name. I have no idea how the impound worker I spoke to knew that. My Son says she said we also got a PCN for the removal (like some on the forum have said). However I have no idea why she wouldn't have given me that PCN along with the others.

Still no response from WFPCN. Just a confirmatory email.

Posted by: Mad Mick V Thu, 29 Aug 2019 - 14:08
Post #1511348

Post up the PCN for the original relocation.

Was there any stickers on the car when picked up from the pound indicating the vehicle had been relocated?

The key information missing from this case is the reason for relocation--a TTRO or something similar and anything from the Council admitting the vehicle was relocated.

I've never used TRACE but will they be able to tell the OP that the vehicle was relocated on such and such a date and then taken to the pound on another date?
Mick

Posted by: nari Fri, 30 Aug 2019 - 15:07
Post #1511562

Okay so I have finally received a response from WFPCN and as many people had already suspected it seems there is in fact an additional outstanding PCN related to the initial moving of the vehicle.

It also seems as though they've taken my original email as attempt to make representations, even though I explicitly stated in my email this is not a representation.

Anyway I'm going to post everything they sent, which includes the missing PCN as well as the two outstanding 12s bay PCNs which we've already seen.



Missing PCN (01/08)

pg1

https://ibb.co/S0LFJ0q

pg2

https://ibb.co/qsmWkMD

viewed online

https://ibb.co/x7C5h8z

online PCN parked car close up

https://ibb.co/QCycLdB

1st PCN (03/08)

pg1

https://ibb.co/FBGQn7P

pg2

https://ibb.co/6rQBdHR

pg3

https://ibb.co/TqTgp4c




I actually want to add 4 more screenshots of what I've been sent but when I try to post them it just says "Sorry, but when your post merges with your previous post, you will have used too many images in your combined posts"

Posted by: John U.K. Fri, 30 Aug 2019 - 16:27
Post #1511589

TRy again with a fresh post following this one.

Posted by: nari Fri, 30 Aug 2019 - 17:04
Post #1511597

2nd PCN (04/08)

pg1

https://ibb.co/8PPRX5T

pg2

https://ibb.co/z8LSzf6

pg3

https://ibb.co/8MP1MRR

pg4

https://ibb.co/z5sm4d9

Posted by: nari Sat, 31 Aug 2019 - 19:42
Post #1511740

Does anyone know whether the PCN labeled "Missing PCN (01/08)" could be considered evidence that the car was was removed for resurfacing? It doesn't seem to explicitly say the car was removed..

And as for challenging that PCN, I don't know how I would be able to prove that the car was parked there prior to the signs being put up.

Was also wondering what counts as the time at which a PCN was served? For example is it from the point at which the ticket officer hands out the ticket or is it from the point at which the car owner or driver receives it?

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 2 Sep 2019 - 10:07
Post #1512018

Well treating a request for information as a representation is a procedural impropriety in its own right. How many outstanding PCNs are we dealing with exactly?

Posted by: nari Mon, 2 Sep 2019 - 16:31
Post #1512137

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 2 Sep 2019 - 11:07) *
Well treating a request for information as a representation is a procedural impropriety in its own right. How many outstanding PCNs are we dealing with exactly?


The way they've sent me the information regarding these outstanding PCNs is extremely confusing. I'm only just getting my head round it now that they've sent me another email today.

So as far as i can gather there are three outstanding PCNs. (All of the documentation I have ragarding these have been posted earlier in the thread)

The first one on 01/08 was "Parked or loading / unloading in a restricted street where waiting and loading / unloading restrictions are in force (temporary traffic order)"

The second on 03/08 was "Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place where required, or without payment of the parking charge"

The third on 04/08 "Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place where required, or without payment of the parking charge"

The main thing missing has the been information or evidence regarding how the car got from where it was parked when the first PCN (01/08) was issued to where it was parked when the second and thrird PCNs were issued. Finally leading to the car been issued another PCN (paid) and the car being towed.

Today however they sent me another email regarding the third PCN (04/08). It was similar to a previous email regarding the same PCN, but this time attached at the bottom were various picture related to not only PCNs with the code FR but also some other kind with the code RM. The pictures relating to these RM codes actually show my car being removed from where it was parked on 01/08 the same day that the first PCN was issued. So i guess this is the evidence needed to challenged the two 12 s resident bay PCNs.

Ill attach screenshots of the email with pictures below.

pg1

https://ibb.co/dPpVjhB

pg2

https://ibb.co/dDntWrz

pg3

https://ibb.co/FhfV73W

pg4

https://ibb.co/jfzvBF4

pg5

https://ibb.co/gyN02cP

pg6

https://ibb.co/r6ZJHfC

pg7

https://ibb.co/7N7D41b

pg8

https://ibb.co/7Rm1H8P

Sorry, no idea why those pictures came out so small. You can click them to view at their proper size.

Posted by: ohnoes Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 19:59
Post #1512499

Hi nari,

I have a feeling you're going to get some good news (or already have) regarding this story.
A link to this saga may or may not have been sent to the desk of the right person at the council.

Posted by: nari Fri, 6 Sep 2019 - 00:39
Post #1513022

QUOTE (ohnoes @ Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 20:59) *
Hi nari,

I have a feeling you're going to get some good news (or already have) regarding this story.
A link to this saga may or may not have been sent to the desk of the right person at the council.


Been checking emails daily but nothing yet. In case nothing comes of that, Ill put through challenges for the 12 s bay PCNs and will request refunds for what I've already paid.

Although with the first PCN (01/08) I'm not quite sure how to prove that there was no signage indicating there was going to be a temporary parking ban at the time of my parking.

Thanks

Posted by: Mad Mick V Fri, 6 Sep 2019 - 05:17
Post #1513024

OP----Ask the Council when the TTRO Notices were posted on that street--probably the Highways Department.

Mick

Posted by: nari Fri, 6 Sep 2019 - 11:02
Post #1513113

QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Fri, 6 Sep 2019 - 06:17) *
OP----Ask the Council when the TTRO Notices were posted on that street--probably the Highways Department.

Mick


Will do, thanks a lot!

Posted by: nari Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 20:49
Post #1516481

Just wanted to post a final update, for anyone who'd be interested, and say thanks to everyone on this great forum who gave their time, help, knowledge, etc.

So as "ohnoes" predicted, all outstanding PCN cases were closed, although they didn't actually inform us I ended up finding out on their website when I went online to challenge.

After this I emailed the wfpcn email address and asked for a refund of the car removal fee and the associated PCN.

Today we opened a letter, and voila, there was a check inside!

Don't know what I would have done without this forum, would have been a lot more stressed that's for sure!

Thanks again everyone!

Posted by: Mad Mick V Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 05:49
Post #1516514

Well done OP for your persistence.

Pity it didn't get to adjudication because IMO costs would have been awarded to you.

Make sure the 1st PCN has been cancelled too.

Mick



Posted by: ohnoes Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 09:10
Post #1516532

Well done for fighting back!

Posted by: Earl Purple Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 16:23
Post #1516656

Thank you for posting the update as it is always nice to know how a case was resolved.

By knowing who was successful and who was not helps us in the future to advise others in the same situation.

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