Hey all
I Parked on a road, about 3 minutes from my home, that has no parking restrictions. I was parked there a little over a week before I came back to use the car. When I returned, my car was nowhere to be seen although i did notice that the road had been resurfaced. I called the council and was informed the car had been towed. When I went to collect the car I was informed by a member of staff that the car had been relocated in order for the road resurfacing to be completed. Unfortunately it was relocated to parking permitted zone and the car was subsequently ticketed a number of times before being towed.
I have been doing my own research but any help and information regarding the best way to challenge this would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks
I forgot to mention that when we parked there there were no visible signage informing that there was going to be some work carried out on the road. Although i don't have any evidence to back this up.
no indication of a permit or expired permit etc
There are quite a few roads in the area without parking restrictions although i do not know about the availability of spaces at the time
3 PCNs in total
The time frame question is a little bit more difficult and im going to have to see if my son can remember those exact details but approximately a week and a half before it was towed
OP----IMO this is an abuse of process and completely unfair in that you have been penalised and more so deprived of your vehicle. The Council has acted wholly unreasonably and I would be looking to claim costs.
In essence one part of the Council acted correctly in relocating the vehicle but made an error in placing it in a permit zone. That mistake was exacerbated by removal of the vehicle (by the same tow truck?).
Here is the background to an abuse of process case in which the Council have acted unfairly and in prejudice of an appellant rights:-
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=90145&view=findpost&p=1450992
We need some sort of timeframe from you and why you didn't check your vehicle regularly.
Wait for others to comment since this needs to be a precise appeal.
Mick
1.Reinstate all date, times, locations and everything else except your personal information. As more than one PCN is involved, you should number them otherwise we'll lose track. And state clearly which of the PCNs is referred to in the release documents.
2. Get on to the council's website and see whether there are outstanding penalties and if so, give details.
Forget abuse of process for the moment pl, we're still finding facts.
So far you've posted 3 PCNs all for the same contravention NONE OF WHICH relates to the first removal. But whether any relate directly to the tow, we do not know. And as your car was removed to another place on a road, then where's this PCN??
You get my drift?
And how would we know what's the most urgent matter, we don't know any dates!!
1st PCN (03/08)
2nd PCN (04/08)
PCN referred to in release form (07/08)
The release form
Authorised for removal slip
I went online and checked each of the three PCNs given to me when I collected the vehicle. The 1st and 2nd I could access and are outstanding. I can post screenshots of what I can view online if that would help? They both say "parked in a residents or shared use parking place or zone without clearly displaying a valid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or without payment of the parking charge' and they both have a number of pictures showing the car, where it was parked, etc.
I couldn't access the third PCN which was referred to in the release document, I presume, because it was paid on release.
As has been said, all three of these PCNs seem to be for the same contravention which was a result of the car being relocated, although, how and when the car was relocated is a mystery to me at this point.
As for why I didn't check my vehicle regularly, that would just be down to having no reason to use it for around a week - a week and a half. Unfortunately, I don't have a better reason than that
Don't know it helps but i put together a map showing where the car was originally parked and where it was the moved to -
So there was no PCN from the original parking place on car? Have you checked with council?
There wasn't one when we retrieved the car from the impound but I will double check with the council
Can you please re-post the images using imgbb.com or imgur.com ? tinypic's servers are not working at the moment:
Of course, here we are:
1st PCN (03/08)
2nd PCN (03/08)
PCN referred to in release form (07/08)
The release form
Authorised for removal slip
Map
We need an accurate timeframe, also have you checked the council website to see if there are any other outstanding penalties?
Do I not need a PCN number to check an outstanding penalty online?
Otherwise ill have to speak with the council tomorrow, as I think their offices are closed now.
Some council systems will log all PCNs against a car VRM once you have logged in with one.
OP, let's try and get some clarity.
Your account makes no sense. Let me explain.
You parked your vehicle on **** (date.. which you've not told us!) on an unrestricted length of street 24/7. Yes?
You say that at some point this location became restricted and that your car was moved to location B. We do not know when.
At location B THREE PCNs were issued on 3, 4 and 7th August.
Car was removed to the pound on ***.
You recovered vehicle on *** on payment of £265 comprising £200 for tow and £65 for penalty in respect of PCN issued on ???
The contravention given in the three PCNs is the same and is NOT one which would be introduced to deal with resurfacing of a road, this would be no waiting and therefore NONE of the PCNs relates to the initial moving of your car.
If any of the PCNs at location B is lawful, then it is ONLY the first one, but this isn't the one apparently given in the release paperwork.
So I'm still lost by your account which has too many gaps.
Pl help.
h - my understanding is the car did not comit an offence at the first place - it was jsut relocated without a PCN.
Where it was relocated to had a permit system in place, and as the vehicle had no permit, that is what the PCNs are for.
Timeline would be: Originally parked on the unrestricted road i marked in yellow on the map on the 31st July. At some point after this the car was moved and the road resurfaced. Then on the 3rd and 4th the car received the first 2 PCNs. On the 7th the car received another PCN and was ultimately towed. It wasn't until the 8th (when I actually had to use the car) that I found it was not where I had left it.
Ill check with the council today to find out if there is another outstanding PCN I don't know about. If there isn't another outstanding PCN, do I want to press the council to find out how the car was relocated to a permit zone in the first place?
thanks
Playing devils advocate, could you or somebody who drives your car used it and parked it in the residents spot by accident / being forgetful?
If I were you I’d want proof that the car was relocated for the resurfacing rather than relying on heresay.
h - my understanding is the car did not comit an offence at the first place - it was jsut relocated without a PCN.
With what lawful authority? None that I know of. Whereas a vehicle may be removed in different scenarios e.g. appears to be abandoned, has been issued with a PCN, only the latter allows moving to another place on a road.
So this was the road where you originally parked?
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5886741,-0.0113406,3a,75y,347.08h,79.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-cN7WvV_b-uAyRTtW7254A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
It hasn't got a name it seems. Why?
Well I guess I can't exactly prove that the car was not parked in the residents spot by accident.
Spoken to the council and they are saying that any evidence they may have of the car being moved can only be retrieved by emailing, or writing, to the same addresses used for making representations (wfpcn@nsl.co.uk or Parking Services, PO Box 9319, London, E17 7RX)
A car is parked on a road it is committing no parking contravention nor is it causing an obstruction. But the council want to resurface the road. The come along see the car there and move it. Naughty and unlikely. But lets just pretend for a moment this is what happened.
So now the car is in contravention. The council may issue a PCN, they may even remove the vehicle after 30 minutes but what they cannot do is issue 3 PCN's and then remove
So the vehicle was authorised for removal on the 7th and I am guessing this is the PCN you paid.
But I am with HCA there is no lawful authority to move your vehicle in the first place unless a TTRO has been enacted and this is likely. It could be that the contractors were tasked with placing the required notice and sign and just did not bother until the day, so that is the reason your car was moved to another place not the pound. You need to find out exactly what happened or we can deal with these we no of and then another will pop up and that other can be your saviour because it is evidence that the vehicle was left in that place without the consent of the owner
Only by asking the council will you get this information.
Number of all PCN's outstanding against the VRM then copies please then all photos taken at time of service
But lets just pretend for a moment this is what happened.
Don't tell the council's Risk Management Officer
Some things that seem seductively attractive and without risk at the time often come back to bite one in the a**e!
OP----What is the name of the road where you parked originally and where the resurfacing took place?
If it was covered by a Temporary Traffic Order, which appears likely, then you might have another PCN for that road and that would provide the Council authority to relocate your vehicle. You might be lucky and not have a PCN but the Council could still remove subject to the terms of the Order.
Mick
I think we're going over well-trodden territory here.
OP, only you can give us the info we need.
Thanks for all the input, reckon I'd be lost right now without this forum!
Okay, so as I mentioned the council has told me the only way to request information or evidence regarding any PCNs is via email or post.
This is the email I've quickly drafted "I am writing to request copies of all PCN's outstanding against the Vehicle Registation Number - KD03 CLZ and all photographic evidence taken at time of service. I require these documents ASAP, so that i have reasonable time in which to launch any challanges."
Just wondering if there's anything I should be aware of before sending this off?
Still gaps:
what as name of road that you originally parked on?
how did the person in the pound know car was relocated? When I went to collect the car I was informed by a member of staff that the car had been relocated in order for the road resurfacing to be completed
If the LA or other body need to undertake emergency repairs where the bay isn't already signed up with a parking suspension sign and they need your car out of the way, a PCN code 21will be issued which allows them to relocate it. The PCN would then be cancelled as its an administrative exercise. If the bay WAS signed up then the PCN is enforced.
If they shift the vehicle to a location where PCNs might subsequently get issued, it would be common courtesy to cancel them as the driver didn't put the car there, but courtesy may be in short supply.
The CEOs should have recorded on the code 21 PCN the details of where they relocated your car to, which should be used to inform the decision making of the PCNs you didn't instigate. The notes would say something like "Tow truck Xx99 called 10.30. Attended 11.05. Vehicle moved to RPHO bay on Doodah St. You need to obtain those details to make sense of what they did and when and to prove you didn't park in the PCN 12s bay.
But this is speculation and covering previous ground.
The law is clear.
What is unclear is the facts.
OP, over to you.
thanks everyone guess its just a case of waiting for the council to get back to my email now
Post up the PCN for the original relocation.
Was there any stickers on the car when picked up from the pound indicating the vehicle had been relocated?
The key information missing from this case is the reason for relocation--a TTRO or something similar and anything from the Council admitting the vehicle was relocated.
I've never used TRACE but will they be able to tell the OP that the vehicle was relocated on such and such a date and then taken to the pound on another date?
Mick
Okay so I have finally received a response from WFPCN and as many people had already suspected it seems there is in fact an additional outstanding PCN related to the initial moving of the vehicle.
It also seems as though they've taken my original email as attempt to make representations, even though I explicitly stated in my email this is not a representation.
Anyway I'm going to post everything they sent, which includes the missing PCN as well as the two outstanding 12s bay PCNs which we've already seen.
Missing PCN (01/08)
pg1
https://ibb.co/S0LFJ0q
pg2
https://ibb.co/qsmWkMD
viewed online
https://ibb.co/x7C5h8z
online PCN parked car close up
https://ibb.co/QCycLdB
1st PCN (03/08)
pg1
https://ibb.co/FBGQn7P
pg2
https://ibb.co/6rQBdHR
pg3
https://ibb.co/TqTgp4c
I actually want to add 4 more screenshots of what I've been sent but when I try to post them it just says "Sorry, but when your post merges with your previous post, you will have used too many images in your combined posts"
TRy again with a fresh post following this one.
2nd PCN (04/08)
pg1
https://ibb.co/8PPRX5T
pg2
https://ibb.co/z8LSzf6
pg3
https://ibb.co/8MP1MRR
pg4
https://ibb.co/z5sm4d9
Does anyone know whether the PCN labeled "Missing PCN (01/08)" could be considered evidence that the car was was removed for resurfacing? It doesn't seem to explicitly say the car was removed..
And as for challenging that PCN, I don't know how I would be able to prove that the car was parked there prior to the signs being put up.
Was also wondering what counts as the time at which a PCN was served? For example is it from the point at which the ticket officer hands out the ticket or is it from the point at which the car owner or driver receives it?
Well treating a request for information as a representation is a procedural impropriety in its own right. How many outstanding PCNs are we dealing with exactly?
Hi nari,
I have a feeling you're going to get some good news (or already have) regarding this story.
A link to this saga may or may not have been sent to the desk of the right person at the council.
OP----Ask the Council when the TTRO Notices were posted on that street--probably the Highways Department.
Mick
Just wanted to post a final update, for anyone who'd be interested, and say thanks to everyone on this great forum who gave their time, help, knowledge, etc.
So as "ohnoes" predicted, all outstanding PCN cases were closed, although they didn't actually inform us I ended up finding out on their website when I went online to challenge.
After this I emailed the wfpcn email address and asked for a refund of the car removal fee and the associated PCN.
Today we opened a letter, and voila, there was a check inside!
Don't know what I would have done without this forum, would have been a lot more stressed that's for sure!
Thanks again everyone!
Well done OP for your persistence.
Pity it didn't get to adjudication because IMO costs would have been awarded to you.
Make sure the 1st PCN has been cancelled too.
Mick
Well done for fighting back!
Thank you for posting the update as it is always nice to know how a case was resolved.
By knowing who was successful and who was not helps us in the future to advise others in the same situation.
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