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arrested to prove ID - prosecuted for drug driving
jobones
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 20:02
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OK, hopefully we are in the right place with this and looking for a little information

As this relates to someone who hasn't exactly got a great record of telling the truth when it really matters some of it may need to be taken with a pinch of salt smile.gif

01/01/2018

Our dopey stepson was stopped by a traffic car and arrested at the roadside because (his words) 'they thought he was someone else and he had no ID on him'. The traffic cop swab tested him for drugs and breathalysed him - he maintains he passed both roadside tests even though he'd had a couple of joints the night before. Interestingly, he was picked up after he left one of his mates' houses who is a known small time drug dealer and guitarist in a band our boy plays in so perhaps the police put a marker on his car as it's often outside that house

He was taken to the station where he was fingerprinted, swabbed and a blood sample was supposedly taken - he maintains that he was told this was to help establish his identity. When they were satisfied he wasn't the person they thought he was they de-arrested him and offered him a lift back to his car.

He never mentioned this to us or his Dad as he thought it was all over and done with

14/03/2018

He received a summons through the post for having a trace of THC in his blood sample!

Ne never mentioned this to us because he is stupid!

23/03/2018

He attends court and is banned for 12 months

He told his sister about this and she told all the rest of the family smile.gif

My thoughts...

If he tested negative at the roadside there would be no requirement to give blood at the station and the Police have no right to take it anyway as he wasn't arrested for drink/drug driving. I've never heard of a blood sample being used to prove ID when DNA and fingerpints were also taken.

If he was de-arrested (not bailed) surely the Police can't then use his blood sample for anything and they would have no right to even keep it let alone submit it for testing even if it was given voluntarily - after all, he was arrested purely to confirm who he was.

Surely if the police don't follow procedure and he is in fact telling the truth he has reasonable grounds for an appeal even though he was technically guilty - his job depends on his licence and he still won't tell us how much THC he had in his blood

It's an odd one because he's such a bullsh*tter and none of us are willing to go to war on his behalf or back him 100% because of that - his 'real Dad' is a solicitor and he won't touch the case because he won't risk his reputation on a story that he doesn't believe smile.gif

Any thoughts, comments etc appreciated - us there a way forwards for him based on the above?

Cheers


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post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 20:02
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andy_foster
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 20:43
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If step-son wants advice, perhaps he could post here himself with the full true story, rather than you posting a version that you don't think is true?
If he doesn't want help, then this becomes even more pointless.


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samthecat
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 20:55
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The account doesn't really make sense, the person telling it is suspected of being full of "it".

I wouldn't waste your time!


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southpaw82
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 20:59
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I’m more inclined to believe that your step son is lying and/or confused, especially as you don’t believe him, than I am that the police completely ignored the law.


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jobones
post Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 22:16
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 28 Mar 2018 - 21:59) *
I’m more inclined to believe that your step son is lying and/or confused, especially as you don’t believe him, than I am that the police completely ignored the law.


yep, it's tricky because as much as I want to believe him it's difficult.

To me, his whole story sounds implausible but my questions were based on the information I had - maybe I communicated that badly

so....

based on the information provided regarding the event - let's just pretend he is tellng the truth for once in his life smile.gif

1, Was the Police behaviour correct and did it follow the correct processes? My opinion is that it didn't

2, Was he required to provide blood samples to prove his identity? My opinion is that he most certainly didn't

3, If he was de-arrested and given a lift back to his car would the Police still have the right to submit his blood sample for further testing even though it had nothing to do with the initial arrest

Thanks for your input


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samthecat
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 06:45
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Bear in mind that he will have been arrested for an offence (presumably drug driving) and the necessity for his arrest may well have been to verify his identity. He will not have been arrested to find out who he was without an underlying offence.

Once at the Police station it sounds like he has been processed as one would be for a drug driving offence, as blood analysis results are not immediately available he would then have been released (not de-arrested). Unless there was a need to impose bail conditions, which is unlikely, he would have been released 'under investigation'. The blood analysis results would then be looked at and he would either receive a letter saying No further action or Come to court.

From the precise account you have posted Police would have been acting outside of legislation however as this is 3rd hand info from an unreliable source I suggest my guess at what may have happened is more likely.

Hope this helps (a bit), I still think you are being told half a story downplaying things.


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DarkArtist
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 06:47
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1) The police can arrest to confirm identity of they suspect him of committing an offence. To do this he would have had to have failed the roadside drug test.

2) Police would never require a specimen of blood for ID purposes. To do so would be outside the law and leave the officer, the custody sergeant and the FME liable for disciplinary and potentially a criminal proceedings.

3) He won't have been de-arrested. He may have been released under investigation which means he was released pending the results of the blood test.

You said it yourself, he is your dopey stepson. He has either completely misunderstood everything that was explained to him or has deliberately lied to you to try and pass it off as a minor incident and paint himself as the victim. If he failed the swipe (which he most likely would if he had a joint the night before) then the only option for the officers is arrest.

In most forces the nurse or Doctor who takes blood specimens is outsourced to a third party company, they are totally independent and would refuse to take blood unlawfully as it would leave them liable to professional disciplinary and criminal investigations.
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Jlc
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 07:33
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What plea did he submit at court to the charges?


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jobones
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 09:37
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QUOTE (DarkArtist @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 07:47) *
1) The police can arrest to confirm identity of they suspect him of committing an offence. To do this he would have had to have failed the roadside drug test.

2) Police would never require a specimen of blood for ID purposes. To do so would be outside the law and leave the officer, the custody sergeant and the FME liable for disciplinary and potentially a criminal proceedings.

3) He won't have been de-arrested. He may have been released under investigation which means he was released pending the results of the blood test.

You said it yourself, he is your dopey stepson. He has either completely misunderstood everything that was explained to him or has deliberately lied to you to try and pass it off as a minor incident and paint himself as the victim. If he failed the swipe (which he most likely would if he had a joint the night before) then the only option for the officers is arrest.

In most forces the nurse or Doctor who takes blood specimens is outsourced to a third party company, they are totally independent and would refuse to take blood unlawfully as it would leave them liable to professional disciplinary and criminal investigations.



Thanks and also to samthecat - that's pretty much how I understood it but he is telling anyone who'll listen that he didn't fail the roadside test and was arrested to prove his ID as they thought he was someone else.

Jlc - he says he pleaded guilty because he had smoked a joint the night before and was told by the duty solicitor that was his best option to avoid a larger fine - my understanding is that he can only appeal the sentence not the judgment
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peterguk
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 09:47
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QUOTE (jobones @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 10:37) *
my understanding is that he can only appeal the sentence


On what grounds?


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The Rookie
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 10:14
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https://www.gov.uk/appeal-against-sentence-conviction

If he is to appeal sentence he would have to show (realistically) it was outside sentencing guidelines and its not (being a min 12 month ban), so that would appear to be a pointless exercise.

If his case was genuinely mishandled as suggested then he should be making a formal complaint to (via) the chief constable, that reply will at least tell you what the Police believed happened and may allow him to correct his perceptions if nothing else.


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NewJudge
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 12:02
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QUOTE (jobones @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 10:37) *
my understanding is that he can only appeal the sentence not the judgment


If he pleaded guilty there is not a judgement (i.e. a verdict) to appeal against.
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southpaw82
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 13:43
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 13:02) *
QUOTE (jobones @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 10:37) *
my understanding is that he can only appeal the sentence not the judgment


If he pleaded guilty there is not a judgement (i.e. a verdict) to appeal against.

Depends on what you mean by verdict. The court may convict without hearing any evidence on a guilty plea - s 9(3) Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980.


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Logician
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 16:15
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With someone as 'dopey' as he sounds it is often difficult to tell whether they have misunderstood what is going on, or are making it up. His account is clearly absurd, particularly about taking blood to establish his ID, he may believe it himself but he is never going to get a court to accept it, so no point in appealing. The best way to help him now would be to empathise to him that driving after he has been disqualified would be a very foolish thing to do, and the police will be looking out for him.


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NewJudge
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 16:31
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 14:43) *
Depends on what you mean by verdict. The court may convict without hearing any evidence on a guilty plea - s 9(3) Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980.


Very true. And they do so every day. But an appeal against such a conviction is not very likely to gain much ground, is it?
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southpaw82
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 19:47
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 17:31) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 14:43) *
Depends on what you mean by verdict. The court may convict without hearing any evidence on a guilty plea - s 9(3) Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980.


Very true. And they do so every day. But an appeal against such a conviction is not very likely to gain much ground, is it?

Are you actually asking me? Considering we both know what s 108(1)(a) of the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980 says?


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cp8759
post Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 21:17
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 17:31) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 29 Mar 2018 - 14:43) *
Depends on what you mean by verdict. The court may convict without hearing any evidence on a guilty plea - s 9(3) Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980.


Very true. And they do so every day. But an appeal against such a conviction is not very likely to gain much ground, is it?

There have been a few cases where defendants have been allowed an appeal after a guilty plea (effectively "withdrawing" their plea so to speak), but only in rare and exceptional circumstances. This case is anything but exceptional, it sounds very run of the mill. If the defendant could show that a truly shocking miscarriage of justice had taken place, it might be worth pursuing. But at the end of the day he was dealt with for an offence he appears to be guilty of, so there's no point in looking into this any further.


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jobones
post Fri, 30 Mar 2018 - 01:27
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Cheers folks, he came around this evening and got upset when we challenged his version of events. His sister summed it up perfectly 'you've had three months to come up with a story and that's the best you can manage - pathetic'. He stomped off to one of his mates' houses when I called him 'bus w*nker'. I think he was expecting sympathy biggrin.gif

Thanks for all your replies though

This post has been edited by jobones: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 - 01:28
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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 30 Mar 2018 - 10:19
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Much as it is tempting to tell him to tell him to enjoy using the bus, it is probably also worth trying to be pragmatic enough to impress on him how important it is not to drive.

Psychology is that if someone tells themselves a story in their head enough times they will start to believe it and therefore make stupid decisions on the basis they have been wronged. It seems ridiculous from the outside, but you don't want him to win an imaginary appeal to keep up the story.
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jobones
post Tue, 3 Apr 2018 - 11:08
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 30 Mar 2018 - 11:19) *
Much as it is tempting to tell him to tell him to enjoy using the bus, it is probably also worth trying to be pragmatic enough to impress on him how important it is not to drive.

Psychology is that if someone tells themselves a story in their head enough times they will start to believe it and therefore make stupid decisions on the basis they have been wronged. It seems ridiculous from the outside, but you don't want him to win an imaginary appeal to keep up the story.



Very much the case with repeating the story - he came around again at the weekend with his dad (solicitor) and got us to help him draft a letter to the chief constable asking for a full explanation of events from the Police's point of view and querying why according to him protocol hadn't been followed.

We went over his version of the facts and he stuck to his story maintaining he was completely innocent and had been stopped for a traffic incident and had passed the roadside test etc.

This morning (before we sent his letter in) my other half emailed the magistrates court and asked if there was a way she could see the results of the case on-line before they were published in the local newspaper. The very helpful court official rang her back and said that she could visit the court but as she was on the phone he would do his best to help her.

So, then she got the court's version of the truth and not surprisingly it was completely different to the yarn we'd been spun.

He had indeed failed the roadside test - the traffic cop's report says the car smelled heavily of Marijuana and idiot was slurring his speech so he was arrested and taken to the station for a blood test

The blood test yielded positive results for Marijuana, Cocaine, Ketamine and some other stuff which my other half didn't bother writing down (she was so angry by this time) with traces of Alcohol that were marginally below the drink drive limit

He was also arrested for failing to report an accident earlier in the evening when his car hit a parked car - he still maintains he wasn't driving it and had lent it to a mate whilst he had something to eat - this part of the story is probably untrue but we can't prove it.

He was banned for 14 months (not the 12 he'd told us), fined and as a direct result of this he's been given notice at work

So, after all, my initial suspicions were right - he really couldn't tell the truth if his life depended on it.

Sorry for wasting people's time on this and once again, thanks for your input
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