London Congestion Charge PCN, Expecting more to come Options

[Rob232]

On the 14th December I sent the following email to TfL customer services
“Hello, I bought a new van, reg xxxxxx, on 2nd September. Unfortunately, the dealership gave incorrect details to DVLA, both my name and address were wrong. I have only recently received a V5C with the correct details on it.
I now realise that I may have driven into the congestion charge zone without paying the charge, and may have other PCNs outstanding (eg Red Routes). Any PCNs would presumably have been sent to the wrong name and address. Could you please look into this for me. I have attached a photo of my new V5C for your information, although I think you can confirm this with DVLA directly.
Thank you
Best regards”
Yesterday morning I received a PCN to my correct address, but with one letter of my surname spelt incorrectly (due to the dealership’s mistake).
Here is the pcn
https://drive.google.com/open?id=107T2TbdTd...1BgtIx4PL-AqKAi
GSV https://www.google.com/maps/@51.48749,-0.12...6384!8i8192
It is the first PCN I have received but it is not the earliest one. Pretty sure I will soon get PCNs for the following dates 11th, 12th, 16th, 24th September and 1st October. Hoping that I will only have to pay the first two since if my details were correct, then I would have got the first PCN before, or on, the 16th and realised my mistake in not updating my vehicle details on autopay. Happy to pay the C charge for the other PCNs.
I note that on this PCN it says I have 28 days from date of service before a CC may be issued, and it gives the date 21/01/2020. However I received the PCN on 30/12/19 and I make this date 26/01/2020, five days later. The envelope is not dated. The 14 day discount deadline is similarly truncated.
Would appreciate any advice on this.

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[stamfordman]

So you just forgot to update your autopay account? And then forgot about the V5C?

Think all you can do is pay one and package the rest up and ask for discretion. And hope you don't have anything other than CC PCNs.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 - 12:03

[Rob232]

Yes forgot to update autopay. Dumb. I had scrapped my old van under TfL scrappage scheme, so had sent them certificate of destruction etc. Had to wait for V5C before I could send them a copy to complete the scrappage process and claim the £3500, which I did on the 14th December, waiting on cheque. It was then I realised I didn't update autopay.
Didn't forget the V5C, it just took ages to get it changed over to my name and address. Posted about it here http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=131824
I suppose if I am asking for discretion for some of the PCNs it would not be prudent to question the truncated timeframes in this one?
Also, without the other PCNs arriving yet, I cant see how I can appeal this one not knowing exactly the details of the others, cameras might not have been working, there could be other dates.
Might be worth a phone call to see if they are going to send me the PCNs.

[Rob232]

OK, I have spoken to TfL yesterday. They say that there are only 2 PCNs outstanding on my Vehicle’s registration, one is the one above, the other was sent to the wrong name and address (contravention date 16th Sept 19) and has progressed to debt registered and OfR sent (on 23rd December). I will ring TEC about it tomorrow, since looking at the guidance notes for PE3 form, “ The form can only be completed by the named Respondent on the Order for Recovery issued by the Local Authority.” (their bold), so I will need to check if I can be the respondent if the name is mis-spelt.
Regarding the PCN posted above, I am thinking of challenging it;
"Dear TfL, I would like this PCN to be considered in conjunction with PCN xxxxxx, contravention date 16th September 2019. I bought my van on 2nd September 2019, unfortunately the dealership gave the wrong name and address to DVLA. If my details had been correct with DVLA the first contravention occurred on Monday 16th September, period of time allowed for payment of the charge ended on 17th, PCN issued 18th and I should have received it Fri 20th but definitely by Mon 23rd and definitely before 5.41pm, the time on the PCN. If I had received a PCN addressed to me I would have realised my mistake and registered my new van on CC Autopay, and would not have incurred the second PCN. Note that at the time of both PCNs I was unaware that the name and address on DVLAs records for my vehicle were wrong, I only found out they were wrong in October after phoning them to ask why I hadn’t received a V5C. I am happy to pay the congestion charge for 23rd September and happy to pay the reduced fine of the 16th September PCN, once I receive it."
Any thoughts?

[Rob232]

Update on this, regarding the PCN dated 16/9/19, TEC refused to allow me to file a Witness Statement as I was not the named Driver (1 letter wrong). After phoning TfL, I decided to pay the PCN because they offered the original 50% discount amount to close the case.
Regarding this PCN I made representations on 2nd January as follows

I would like this PCN to be considered in conjunction with PCN TZ****404, contravention date 16th September 2019 which I have paid today (payment Ref e****). I bought my van on 2nd September 2019 but did not update my LRUC account with my new van registration, therefore PCN ****404 was issued by you. Unfortunately the dealership I bought the van from gave the wrong name and address to DVLA, the name was wrong by one letter, B**** instead of P****, the address was in Grimsby. This was wholly their mistake, my details are correct on the receipt I have for the van (see attached). If my details had been correct with DVLA at the time of the first contravention, then I would have had a PCN addressed to me, which would have arrived before the date and time of this contravention. I would therefore have realised my mistake and registered my new van on CC Autopay. Note that at the time of both PCNs I was unaware that the name and address on DVLAs records for my vehicle were wrong, I only found out they were wrong in October after phoning them to ask why I hadn’t received a V5C.
I understand that TfL have not done anything wrong in processing these two PCNs. With regards to this PCN I understand from the history online that TfL originally contacted DVLA for the registered keeper’s (RK) details and were given Rob B**** in Grimsby, the address appears to be a van leasing firm, they appealed the Charge certificate which was accepted and the PCN was issued to Rob B**** at my address. I am not sure whether the van leasing firm gave my name and address, or whether TfL contacted DVLA again for the RK details. If the latter, then it is entirely possible for DVLA to have had the wrong name but the correct address at that time. In correcting their original mistakes, the van dealership only corrected the address. I had to contact DVLA after I received a V5C at my address with the name Rob B**** on it. They changed the name to P**** and I received another V5C on 14th December with the correct details on it (see attached). So I am in the position of making representations to a PCN which does not have my name on it. Note that I paid PCN TZ****404 despite also not being named, in fact I phoned TEC and they refused to accept any witness statement by me because I was not named on the Order for recovery.
With regards to this PCN I am happy to pay the congestion charge for 23rd September at £11-50
In summary, I have accepted liability for PCN TZ****404 due to not updating my autopay account, but I do not accept full liability for this PCN. I am being penalised under circumstances I had absolutely no control over, indeed it could be argued that I am being penalised twice for the same error.
I look forward to hearing from you in due course

Here is their NOR, it is addressed to me with my correct name on it whereas the PCN was to Rob B****;
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1a9PcMRylc...eb8a-fmOvDoKVOl
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jawJIoizX...epA-CMTCaDnD-Et
https://drive.google.com/open?id=144fOu3Gi9...bnN3l4TbzrEQkG8

Here is PCN history;
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Z5fYUjiMa...OIBNtR5GLKNZJRZ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sumptIL1x...1VVFUX3y-2zvY8u

It is clear to me that they have their facts wrong in the NOR, they say I was the RK at the time of the contravention. This is untrue, else I would have received the PCN, instead of it being sent to Grimsby.
Any thoughts?

[Rob232]

Thinking of appealing with this;

I was not the person liable for the charge at the time of the contravention.
In the The Road User Charging (Enforcement and Adjudication) (London) Regulations 2001 (2) (1);" “person liable” in relation to a vehicle means the registered keeper of that vehicle or the person who is liable, in accordance with the Charges and Penalty Charges Regulations, to pay a charge or penalty charge imposed by a charging scheme;"

Regulation (6) of The Road User Charging (Charges and Penalty Charges) (London) Regulations 2001 describes circumstances where a person other than the registered keeper would be liable, none of which apply in this case. Therefore it was the registered keeper at the time of the contravention who was liable for the penalty charge.

As described in my representations to the charging authority, I was not the registered keeper at the time of the contravention. The registered keeper was Rob B****, ******, Grimsby.

No Penalty charge is payable under the charging scheme.
In their Notice of Rejection, the charging authority state “..according to DVLA records, you were the registered keeper of this vehicle on the date of contravention”. As explained above, this is untrue. If I was the registered keeper at the relevant time, I would have received the PCN instead of Rob B**** in Grimsby. I note from the PCN history that after a charge certificate was issued, the PCN was challenged by someone, the challenge was accepted and the PCN was re-issued to Rob B**** at my address. This course of events clearly shows I was not the registered keeper at the relevant time.

I have sent a Subject Access Request to DVLA asking for a timeline of who was recorded as the registered keeper from the date I bought the vehicle up until today and I am waiting on their reply.

If the charging authority decide to contest this appeal, I would like to see any evidence as to their assertion that I was the registered keeper at the relevant time. Also I would like to see all of the original representations relating to this PCN including those made by the person in Grimsby, in accordance with The Road User Charging (Enforcement and Adjudication) (London) Regulations 2001 schedule (3) (2) (a)

The charging authority have a duty under regulation 13 of the above regulations“(6) It shall be the duty of a charging authority to whom representations are duly made under this regulation— (a) to consider them and any supporting evidence which the person making them provides;..."
It follows that the authority have failed in their duty to consider my representations, they have based their rejection of my representations on something that is blatantly untrue. In the interests of Justice the PCN should be cancelled and no penalty charge should be payable.

Should the Adjudicator decide that the aforementioned grounds were not made out, I would like the following ground to be considered; The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case
In my representations to the PCN I described the situation where if there were no mistakes made by the dealership in registering my vehicle when I bought it, and therefore my name and address were correct on DVLA records, I would have received PCN *****404 (contravention date 16th September 2019) BEFORE the date and time of this contravention. I would have realised that my autopay account needed updating with my new VRM, and would have done it. The authority seem to think these are mitigating factors, but I disagree. The mistake I made was not that of driving into the zone, but that of not updating my account. As stated in my representations I am being penalised twice for the same mistake, I consider this PCN to be a continuing contravention in conjunction with PCN *****404. I paid PCN *****404, despite not being named and not being the registered keeper.
In my representations I offered to pay the daily congestion charge at £11.50 and believe that, if the other grounds of appeal are not made out, this would have been a fair charge to pay, and the authority would not have been out of pocket.



Am willing to forego the discount and put in appeal within the discount period. But might wait for SAR from DVLA if advised.
Any thoughts?

[cp8759]

Update on this, regarding the PCN dated 16/9/19, TEC refused to allow me to file a Witness Statement as I was not the named Driver (1 letter wrong). After phoning TfL, I decided to pay the PCN because they offered the original 50% discount amount to close the case.

So you paid a PCN that wasn't in your name?

[Rob232]

Update on this, regarding the PCN dated 16/9/19, TEC refused to allow me to file a Witness Statement as I was not the named Driver (1 letter wrong). After phoning TfL, I decided to pay the PCN because they offered the original 50% discount amount to close the case.

So you paid a PCN that wasn't in your name?

Thanks for reply cp8759
Yeah, I was following DD's advice here http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1539569
In retrospect it might not have been the best decision I made. But I was happy that there were only 2 PCNs to deal with, could have been a lot worse.
So does the appeal hold water?
I can see everyone has been very busy lately, and can appreciate that there are many demands on people's time, just want to check I am on the right track with it.

[cp8759]

Please post a clear timeline for the PCN you are challenging, outlining:

1) Date of issue
2) Date of reps
3) Date of NoR

I'm quite busy at the moment and while I'm happy to help, I simply don't have time to go through the docs you posted to figure out what's what, especially as the PCN numbers have been redacted for some reason.

[Rob232]

Thanks CP

1) Date of issue 20/12/19
2)Date of Reps 2/1/20
3 Date of NOR 16/1/20

Thought you had to redact pcn numbers, Not sure why. Happy to reinstate them, especially the one I paid.

Edit
timeline is as posted here
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Z5fYUjiMa...OIBNtR5GLKNZJRZ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sumptIL1x...1VVFUX3y-2zvY8u

23/09/19- contravention
04/10/19- PCN sent to Rob B****, Grimsby
11/12/19- Rob B**** appealed
20/12/19- Appeal accepted
20/12/19- PCN issued to Rob B****, my address
02/01/20- Reps submitted by me
16/01/20- NOR sent to me, Rob P****, my address

This post has been edited by Rob232: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 11:52

[Rob232]

This is the last day of the discount period. Site shows amount at £80

[cp8759]

Well neither of your links works, and I repeat, we need to see the dates for all the PCNs.

[Rob232]

Well neither of your links works, and I repeat, we need to see the dates for all the PCNs.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Z5fYUjiMa...OIBNtR5GLKNZJRZ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sumptIL1x...1VVFUX3y-2zvY8u

There is only 1 PCN, I thought there would be more than the 2 when I first posted this thread. And the other is paid.

[cp8759]

Believe it or not the dates of the other PCN are highly relevant. I don't need the dates of the other PCN, but you need to give me the dates if you want to know if it can help your case.

[Rob232]

Believe it or not the dates of the other PCN are highly relevant. I don't need the dates of the other PCN, but you need to give me the dates if you want to know if it can help your case.

here is the other pcn history https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Lp5FGLCiw...7v4_MRnA7PS4hrS it doesn't give contravention date in the history box, there is nothing in the box below the screenshot.
16/09/19-Contravention-4.15pm
rest as in link


Thanks for your time on this cp8759

This post has been edited by Rob232: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 21:59

[cp8759]

So your best bet is to make a plea for discretion on the basis that you paid the first PCN (include proof of payment) and because the second contravention took place prior to the first PCN being served, you had not yet been alerted to the issue and had no chance to correct your behaviour.

[Rob232]

So your best bet is to make a plea for discretion on the basis that you paid the first PCN (include proof of payment) and because the second contravention took place prior to the first PCN being served, you had not yet been alerted to the issue and had no chance to correct your behaviour.

I'm afraid it is past the point of pleas for discretion. I am at the stage of appealing to adjudicator. I posted an appeal in post #6 which I was hoping for feedback on. The discount is still showing on their website.

[cp8759]

So your best bet is to make a plea for discretion on the basis that you paid the first PCN (include proof of payment) and because the second contravention took place prior to the first PCN being served, you had not yet been alerted to the issue and had no chance to correct your behaviour.

I'm afraid it is past the point of pleas for discretion. I am at the stage of appealing to adjudicator. I posted an appeal in post #6 which I was hoping for feedback on. The discount is still showing on their website.

Honestly, pay the discount. If you had bought the vehicle before the date of the contravention, you were the person keeping the vehicle unless you can show otherwise, and this applies regardless of what records are held by DVLA. Unless the adjudicator has been parting on some special substances the night before, your appeal is hopeless, because you bought the van on 2 September and the date of contravention is 23 September. Sorry if this isn't what you were hoping for but it is what it is.

You will need to notify TFL that in light of their willingness to accept the discount, you're withdrawing your appeal, and you'll have to also notify the tribunal. Keep screenshots of everything and copies of all correspondence, just in case TFL try it on.

[Rob232]

The discount is still available today.
I am a bit surprised. The legislation does seem to say the registered keeper is the liable person, not the owner or keeper as in other decriminalised legislation.
But if that is your advice, it would be foolish of me to ignore it. So will pay this evening.
Thanks again cp8759, I very much appreciate your time and efforts on this forum.