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SJPN no insurance
4ken4
post Wed, 2 May 2018 - 12:07
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Newbie here and thanks for the add. Hoping for some advice please.
July 2017 we sold our van to a scrap dealer. In the heat of the moment we didn't retain the relevant slip to notify DVLA.
They took that along with all the other paperwork. We wrote to DVLA to declare the scrapage.
We have now received a PJPN stating that ' **** was the registered keeper on 9/11/17 and that the vehicle did not meet the statutory insurance requirements contrary to section 22 of the RTS 2006 '
Also states a fixed penalty notice was sent on 9/11/17 and that a valid payment was not received. Along with ' no notification was received prior to this date of the vehicle being disposed of or that the vehicle was insured on that date '
We are not aware of receiving this fixed notice.
Don't know what to do ? Never been in this position before having always been fastidious regarding the legality of our vehicles.
Edit : just to add, the van had been fully insured and taxed prior to selling

This post has been edited by 4ken4: Wed, 2 May 2018 - 12:09
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post Wed, 2 May 2018 - 12:07
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Logician
post Wed, 2 May 2018 - 13:14
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QUOTE (4ken4 @ Wed, 2 May 2018 - 13:07) *
We wrote to DVLA to declare the scrapage.


When did you do that, and did you get a postage receipt and keep a copy?



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4ken4
post Wed, 2 May 2018 - 13:22
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Thanks for the reply
Within a month of the sale. It was all happening at the time as the van had been involved in a skirmish on the motorway ( non fault provan ) a few weeks previous and deemed not financially viable so scrapped by the insurance company. All the time the van was off the road and the claim being resolved it remained taxed and insured.
Sadly no copy or receipt was made.
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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 2 May 2018 - 13:59
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Did your insurance company not take possession of it if you made a claim?
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4ken4
post Wed, 2 May 2018 - 14:23
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They were going to but it was agreed we would buy it back because there were some undamaged components we could use as spares for the replacement. Once removed we then scraped it.
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Logician
post Wed, 2 May 2018 - 14:33
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Well you could try appealing to the DVLA on the basis that you did notify them by letter that the vehicle had been scrapped, but I expect that they will reply that you should have notified them when you did not receive an acknowledgement of that letter. If you opt to go to court they would say the same, and it is then up to the court who to believe. There is of course no legal obligation on you to notify them if you do not receive an acknowledgement.


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4ken4
post Wed, 2 May 2018 - 14:54
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So to admit guilt on the SJPN form then, even though we can prove the van wasn't ours at that time ?
Fine and points for a vehicle we didn't have seems so unfair
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Logician
post Wed, 2 May 2018 - 15:23
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QUOTE (4ken4 @ Wed, 2 May 2018 - 15:54) *
So to admit guilt on the SJPN form then, even though we can prove the van wasn't ours at that time ? Fine and points for a vehicle we didn't have seems so unfair


But you were the registered keeper, and the obligation is on the registered keeper not the owner. There is a lot of bureaucracy involved with vehicles and unless you keep on top of it you pay the penalty. There are also a lot of people trying to bend the rules, at the time the continuous insurance obligation was introduced it was estimated that 30% on the cars on the road were uninsured, so you do not get the benefit of the doubt, otherwise everyone would do it, goes the argument.

By the way there will be no points for this offence, just a fine.



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4ken4
post Wed, 2 May 2018 - 21:21
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So plead guilty but to what ? The fact they clearly are not acknowledging receipt of notification we didn't own anymore...ergo fine for not updating new registered owner...or ....to no insurance despite it being fully insured untill after the van was scrapped ?

Also, DVLA know the scrap dealers details..know we didn't own it at the time of infringement...they have also advised the van has been sold on ohmy.gif since. But say DPA forbids them given us any more details.

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southpaw82
post Wed, 2 May 2018 - 21:46
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QUOTE (4ken4 @ Wed, 2 May 2018 - 22:21) *
So plead guilty but to what ? The fact they clearly are not acknowledging receipt of notification we didn't own anymore...ergo fine for not updating new registered owner...or ....to no insurance despite it being fully insured untill after the van was scrapped ?


To the offence charged, which is presumably being the keeper of a vehicle when no insurance was in force.

QUOTE
Also, DVLA know the scrap dealers details..know we didn't own it at the time of infringement...they have also advised the van has been sold on ohmy.gif since. But say DPA forbids them given us any more details.

The offence isn’t being the owner when no insurance was in force, it’s being the keeper.

There is a defence if you sold the vehicle and furnished the necessary details to the DVLA.


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Logician
post Thu, 3 May 2018 - 01:17
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QUOTE (4ken4 @ Wed, 2 May 2018 - 22:21) *
So plead guilty but to what ? The fact they clearly are not acknowledging receipt of notification we didn't own anymore...ergo fine for not updating new registered owner...or ....to no insurance despite it being fully insured untill after the van was scrapped ? Also, DVLA know the scrap dealers details..know we didn't own it at the time of infringement...they have also advised the van has been sold on ohmy.gif since. But say DPA forbids them given us any more details.


Plead guilty to the offence you are charged with, which you said was ' **** was the registered keeper on 9/11/17 and that the vehicle did not meet the statutory insurance requirements contrary to section 22 of the RTS 2006 ' You cannot plead guilty to an offence you have not been charged with!

As I said above, it is NOT relevant that you did not own the van on 9/11/17, you were the registered keeper

It is also NOT relevant that you did insure the van in the past.

And it is NOT relevant that the scrap dealer sold the van on.

The only thing that IS relevant is that on 9/11/17 the van was not insured and not on SORN and you were the registered keeper.

If you had any evidence that you had informed the DVLA that you had sold the van to the scrapper, then it would be worth going to court and defending this, but you have none.

You do now need to tell the DVLA that you have sold the van, and make sure you get an acknowledgement, or this may happen again, or you will done for no road tax, or somebody may bodge it up and put it back on the road without registering it and commit various offences and all the notifications will come to you.



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ford poplar
post Sat, 5 May 2018 - 01:17
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So produce evidence that the vehicle was either insured or SORNed from date of purchase from Insurer to alleged date of disposal.
In any disposal of a MV the seller should able to provide a sales agreement or require the collector to sign a detailed, signed acceptance doc,
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