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Cambria Close - Hounslow, PCN on Resident Zone
Nayur
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 20:37
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Hi,

On Monday the 8th October, we parked our car along Cambria Close in Hounslow. The road is a small no through road and has a combination of areas with single yellow lines, double yellow line, parking bays and areas with no lines. We parked at the end of the road along side another car where there were no road markings all together.

We returned to the car to find a PCN on the windscreen. On inspection there is a sign on the entry of the road to state that the area is a Resident permit holders only past the point of the sign. The road is extremely confusing as we had parked on a section where there was no roadmarkings as had assumed that it was the areas with parking bays and yellow lines we had to avoid.

I have a number of photos as per below:

Photo 1:

Picture of my car parked along side another, no roadmarkings here

Photo2:

Close up of my car parked

Photo 3:

Photo of my car parked with a clear view of the kerbline

Photo 4:

A sign along the road, but not next to where my car is parked. No roadmarkings where this sign is posted. Parking suspension was not in place when we had parked.

Photo 5:

The resident parking sign at the entry of the road

Photo 6:

The narrow road as you enter the road. I was parked at the end of the road. You can see single yellows on RHS , double on left hand side and parking bays as well.

Photo 7:

Photo of the end of the road. Whilst my car is not within the photo, I was parked along the right hand side of where the other car is shown.

Photo 8:

A clear picture of where I was parked.

Photo 9:

A picture of the other car you can see from photo 7 where the double yellow lines end.

Photo 10:

This is a picture of the PCN issued.

Any thoughts on this. I assumed that as there is no yellow line markings and the parking bays marked here the resident restriction should not apply here? The road is very confusing as there is a multitude of different marking and as there wasn't any where I had parked I had assumed that I would be ok? Although the sign does clearly state resident only parking beyond this point hence maybe the PCN is correct and should not be appealed against?

I can mark up a plan of the road indicating what roadmarkings/signs are where and where I had parked. The road is also visible on streetview if you use the postcode TW3 3RR.

Thanking you for your input in advance.
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post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 20:37
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makara
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 21:44
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Wow...living in Hounslow and often-ish driving down Hibernia Road, I had no idea this road even existed until now...


But I do see your point - no Bays, and no DYLs on the area you parked on - and the small blue sign isn't exactly giving clear info.


Hopefully others will be along to advise. I don't think your confusion is unreasonable.
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cp8759
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 23:21
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If you drove past the entry sign, you were within a Permit Parking Area, no further signs or lines are required (though reminders are needed if the area is large or it's a very long road but that doesn't apply here). Looks banged-to-rights to be honest, maybe ask for discretion but do not risk the discount.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Nayur
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 15:22
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I take your point CP8759 but I had a drive down here today and few more points:

1) I can't seem to see that the sign on the entry is a prescribed sign (photo 5) , so am I right to assume that in order to use it the council must have the approval of the Dept of Transport? I can ask for such to prove that this is a legal sign? Can I also check with the D of T if they have approved such a sign?

2) I can understand that the sign would make sense if there were no roadmarkings within the road, but it is so complicated as there are 2 parking bays marked up, one which has a sign to state parking permit only and to see the sign on the entry (as per photo 4 above), the other parking bay has no sign. I had assumed you need a sign along side each parking bay? There is also yellow lines there. So do we assume that the restriction that applies to the yellow is the same as the parking bays. In addition there are section with no lines as well as double yellow lines? Just seems unfair to assume that people can make sense of all of that surely?

I guess I have nothing to loose if I appeal within the 14 day period but I have heard that these are normally rejected by the council and its then to take to the arbitrator but at this stage I risk losing the discount as you say.

Any other pointers by anyone to help?
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makara
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 15:34
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QUOTE (Nayur @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 16:22) *
I guess I have nothing to loose if I appeal within the 14 day period but I have heard that these are normally rejected by the council and its then to take to the arbitrator but at this stage I risk losing the discount



I thought that Councils re-offer the discount even if they reject your appeal

- if I am incorrect, apologies.
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Nayur
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 16:04
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Sorry just come across something else that suggest that while the entry sign is not prescribed it is highlighted as a possible sign within the Guidance (Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 - section 7.15). It states that this does need to be authorised as it is not a prescribed sign. So I can ask to ensure it has been authorised and ask for the complimentary traffic order for this?

Additionally the guidance states:

"Where parking in an entire road is reserved solely for permit holders and where no other parking or loading activities are permitted, it might be possible to provide signs at the entrance to the road and dispense with signs and bay markings within the road itself"

So what we have on this road isn't in line with this as we do have roadmarkings (mixture of them too) here which creates the confusion.

The guidance also states:

"The entry signs may be supplemented by signs to diagram 660 or 660.3, used as reminders in the individual streets. In this case a special direction should be sought from the Department (see para 2.1) to allow the signs to be used without bay markings."

The signs used on the road here are not in line with either of those diagram numbers provided and the signs themselves don't appear to be prescribed.

Final section from guidance:

"Any part of a road may include a prohibition of waiting (which would apply equally to permit holders) and be signed and marked as described in section 6."

While there are double yellow lines and single yellow lines along here, the singles don't have any supplementary signs to indicates times for these.

So to conclude, we have a sign which would normally be used to dispense with roadmarkings, this is not the case here. The signs used to supplement the restrictions of permit holders are not in line with the guidance and is not used consistently along the road, some parking bays have it and some don't. We also have waiting restrictions along the road which seems to be allowed but no signs for the single yellow line sections. In addition to all of this there are areas with no lines at all.

Surely this can not be deem to clear for the average Joe to understand let alone me! Don't know if I have just convinced myself as thats what I want to believe! Would really want to gain others views on this!

Extract of the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 below:


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Nayur
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 16:29
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QUOTE (makara @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 16:34) *
QUOTE (Nayur @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 16:22) *
I guess I have nothing to loose if I appeal within the 14 day period but I have heard that these are normally rejected by the council and its then to take to the arbitrator but at this stage I risk losing the discount



I thought that Councils re-offer the discount even if they reject your appeal

- if I am incorrect, apologies.



No you are right, if they reject then they re-offer the discount. Just heard that they generally always reject?
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 17:33
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TSRGD 2016 authorises the sign
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makara
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 17:48
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QUOTE (Nayur @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 17:29) *
Just heard that they generally always reject?


Not always - Hounslow Council a couple of times conceded immediately to some of my initial appeals - although none were of this specific type of Contravention.
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cp8759
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 18:16
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QUOTE (Nayur @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 16:22) *
I take your point CP8759 but I had a drive down here today and few more points:

1) I can't seem to see that the sign on the entry is a prescribed sign (photo 5) , so am I right to assume that in order to use it the council must have the approval of the Dept of Transport? I can ask for such to prove that this is a legal sign? Can I also check with the D of T if they have approved such a sign?

The sign is authorised by the TSRGD 2016

QUOTE (Nayur @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 16:22) *
2) I can understand that the sign would make sense if there were no roadmarkings within the road, but it is so complicated as there are 2 parking bays marked up, one which has a sign to state parking permit only and to see the sign on the entry (as per photo 4 above), the other parking bay has no sign. I had assumed you need a sign along side each parking bay? There is also yellow lines there. So do we assume that the restriction that applies to the yellow is the same as the parking bays. In addition there are section with no lines as well as double yellow lines? Just seems unfair to assume that people can make sense of all of that surely?

If you don't have a permit you can't park anywhere past that sign, unless it's off-road on in a bay that specifically allows parking for non-permit holders. Basically no permit = no parking, simples.

QUOTE (Nayur @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 16:22) *
I guess I have nothing to loose if I appeal within the 14 day period but I have heard that these are normally rejected by the council and its then to take to the arbitrator but at this stage I risk losing the discount as you say.

The council will normally re-offer the discount but if they reject, don't take it to the tribunal as you won't have a leg to stand on. Post the council's response in any event, there's always a chance they might mess up.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Nayur
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 18:28
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 18:33) *
TSRGD 2016 authorises the sign


I must have missed it then. Would you know what Diag number the sign is within the TSRGD?

Thanks.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 19:16) *
QUOTE (Nayur @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 16:22) *
I take your point CP8759 but I had a drive down here today and few more points:

1) I can't seem to see that the sign on the entry is a prescribed sign (photo 5) , so am I right to assume that in order to use it the council must have the approval of the Dept of Transport? I can ask for such to prove that this is a legal sign? Can I also check with the D of T if they have approved such a sign?

The sign is authorised by the TSRGD 2016

QUOTE (Nayur @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 16:22) *
2) I can understand that the sign would make sense if there were no roadmarkings within the road, but it is so complicated as there are 2 parking bays marked up, one which has a sign to state parking permit only and to see the sign on the entry (as per photo 4 above), the other parking bay has no sign. I had assumed you need a sign along side each parking bay? There is also yellow lines there. So do we assume that the restriction that applies to the yellow is the same as the parking bays. In addition there are section with no lines as well as double yellow lines? Just seems unfair to assume that people can make sense of all of that surely?

If you don't have a permit you can't park anywhere past that sign, unless it's off-road on in a bay that specifically allows parking for non-permit holders. Basically no permit = no parking, simples.

QUOTE (Nayur @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 16:22) *
I guess I have nothing to loose if I appeal within the 14 day period but I have heard that these are normally rejected by the council and its then to take to the arbitrator but at this stage I risk losing the discount as you say.

The council will normally re-offer the discount but if they reject, don't take it to the tribunal as you won't have a leg to stand on. Post the council's response in any event, there's always a chance they might mess up.



I see, do you think if I asked for the traffic order then they would be able to provide it? Will it have to detail the double yellow and the singles as well as the permit holders restrictions?
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cp8759
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 18:32
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QUOTE (Nayur @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 19:28) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 18:33) *
TSRGD 2016 authorises the sign


I must have missed it then. Would you know what Diag number the sign is within the TSRGD?

Thanks.

Under Part 3 of Schedule 5 you'll find "Entrance to a permit parking area": http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/5/made

QUOTE (Nayur @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 19:28) *
I see, do you think if I asked for the traffic order then they would be able to provide it? Will it have to detail the double yellow and the singles as well as the permit holders restrictions?

You can definitely ask, there's always a possibility the order might be missing or flawed.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Nayur
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 00:31
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Thank you CP8759! I was looking for the whole sign! Does it give guidance on how the sign needs to be implemented? I thought this was in the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3, which was obviously last issued prior to this sign being authorised? Just would like to gain an understanding on how the local authority should be implementing it.
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cp8759
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 10:06
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QUOTE (Nayur @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 01:31) *
Thank you CP8759! I was looking for the whole sign! Does it give guidance on how the sign needs to be implemented? I thought this was in the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3, which was obviously last issued prior to this sign being authorised? Just would like to gain an understanding on how the local authority should be implementing it.

The 2016 TSRGD provides a "menu" style approach, so the highways authority can take the various elements of Schedule 5 and do a bit of a mix and match. To be honest this is now academic as you've had more than one experienced member look at the sign and we all seem to think it's compliant. You should get a copy of the TMO to check for errors and also make reps asking for discretion, but if neither of those approaches work the discount would be a sensible option.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Nayur
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 10:37
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Thank you once again. I'll put in the appeal today and let you guys know how I get on.
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 16:48
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That sort of sign is a Diagram 663.3 which is noted in the 2011 revision to the 2002 TSRGDs. I would expect that it is incorporated within the 2016 iteration at Sch 4, Part 4 (2) which allows permitted variants. I cannot see an adjudicator concluding that its use is illegal.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/4/made

Mick
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