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Not Parked correctly within the markings!
Bahar20
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 17:32
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Hi
I parked in Dean Gardens car park in West Ealing and when I came back to my car I found a pcn on my windscreen with the reason of not parking within the markings!
Please see pictures and tell me if I didn't park within the markings and how can I challenge this ticket?
I really appreciate your help...







This post has been edited by Bahar20: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 17:33
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post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 17:32
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 17:44
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here

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.510096,-0...3312!8i6656


might be a struggle the markings look clear
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 17:57
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Except that this is an off street car park and the code is for on street.

Mick
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Bahar20
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 18:01
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 18:44) *
here

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.510096,-0...3312!8i6656


might be a struggle the markings look clear



I parked in the last space.. there was no yellow line nor a sign to restrict the spot!
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Bahar20
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 20:14
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any suggestion?
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Bahar20
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 20:52
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I can't see how I am not inside the space?
and as Mick said the code 86 should have been used for not parked wholly within the markings for car parks off the street

This post has been edited by Bahar20: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 21:10
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Bahar20
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 21:29
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This is what I am going to write them:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I parked in Dean Gardens car park exactly inside the last space. There is no sign nor yellow line nor any other restriction on that space not to allow me to park there.
The second reason that this PCN is not valid is that code 24 is used for on-street parking contravention. The Dean Gardens is a car park off-street and even if any car would have parked not wholly within the markings code 86 should have been used.

Base on these reasons please cancel this ticket.
Thanks


Please let me know if I can write anything stronger?

This post has been edited by Bahar20: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 21:53
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Incandescent
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 21:34
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Try this:-
"There is no sign, or yellow hatching markings, nor any other restriction marking by that space indicating it is not a parking space"

If it were me I'd be taking them to adjudication, and bug*er the extra money if I lose.
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Bahar20
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 21:46
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 22:34) *
Try this:-
"There is no sign, or yellow hatching markings, nor any other restriction marking by that space indicating it is not a parking space"

If it were me I'd be taking them to adjudication, and bug*er the extra money if I lose.


Thanks
-----------------------------------------

Dear Sir/Madam,

I parked in Dean Gardens car park exactly inside the last space. There is no sign, or yellow hatching markings, nor any other restriction marking by that space indicating it is not a parking space.
The second reason that this PCN is not valid is that code 24 is used for on-street parking contravention. The Dean Gardens is a car park off-street and even if any car would have parked not wholly within the markings code 86 should have been used.

Based on these reasons please cancel this ticket.
Thanks

This post has been edited by Bahar20: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 21:54
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hcandersen
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 21:53
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What we need to see, as would an adjudicator, is the conditions of use of the car park.

And these would be on the noticeboard.

And we haven't seen them, therefore all other matters are pure speculation.
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 06:11
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https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5098221,-...6384!8i8192

"Parking is only permitted in marked bays"

Mick
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hcandersen
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 07:34
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Thanks MMV.

And at least one other noticeboard has the same.

OP, the PCN must state the grounds and yours does correctly other than for the code. IMO this is not a winning argument as you've put it, therefore you must get them to commit themselves, similarly for the issue of markings.

I read the noticeboard and reasonably presumed that a 'restricted area' would be marked in an obvious way and that a bay without any such markings but bounded by kerbs and white lines was therefore a 'marked bay'. Every other bay which is adjacent to the external limits of the car park is bounded by kerbs and white lines and so I cannot see the difference between these and where I was parked. 'Marked bay' without clearly defining what are and are not acceptable markings is a tad misleading. If the authority claim that I was not parked within a 'marked bay', then they must explain why given that the photos show an area bounded by kerbs and white lines and without any other indication that parking is not permitted.

I also note that the PCN has the wrong contravention code, it should be 86. Why did the CEO choose code 24 and what is its significance in terms of the grounds of contravention?
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Mr Meldrew
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 13:41
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Although Dean Gardens Car Park is a Pay and Display/RingGo car park that clearly displays its conditions of use (GSV Feb 2018), there is a vehicular barrier between it and the free (Mon-Sat 30 mins 8am-6.30pm) off-street car park where the OP parked—whatever they named the free parking area off Leeland Terrace.

https://goo.gl/maps/z4LN6MJg3a62


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stamfordman
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 13:53
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Recent view:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5102503,-...6384!8i8192

The end of bay markings still clear but council shot above shows adjacent car parked over the markings - this should help and can be mentioned in the challenge.




This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 13:54
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mdann52
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 16:32
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QUOTE (Mr Meldrew @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:41) *
Although Dean Gardens Car Park is a Pay and Display/RingGo car park that clearly displays its conditions of use (GSV Feb 2018), there is a vehicular barrier between it and the free (Mon-Sat 30 mins 8am-6.30pm) off-street car park where the OP parked—whatever they named the free parking area off Leeland Terrace.

https://goo.gl/maps/z4LN6MJg3a62


Interesting point - I presume this is not covered by a parking place order (I can't see it on the list of parking places on their website in any case), and it's covered by standard road parking signs. Looks like it may well be the correct code after all...
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Mr Meldrew
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 12:31
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QUOTE (mdann52 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 17:32) *
QUOTE (Mr Meldrew @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:41) *
Although Dean Gardens Car Park is a Pay and Display/RingGo car park that clearly displays its conditions of use (GSV Feb 2018), there is a vehicular barrier between it and the free (Mon-Sat 30 mins 8am-6.30pm) off-street car park where the OP parked—whatever they named the free parking area off Leeland Terrace.

https://goo.gl/maps/z4LN6MJg3a62

Interesting point - I presume this is not covered by a parking place order (I can't see it on the list of parking places on their website in any case), and it's covered by standard road parking signs. Looks like it may well be the correct code after all...

Yeah, and as those are standard road parking signs I’m not confident that the Council are within their powers to enforce contraventions in an off-street parking lot using upright signs that control waiting, loading and parking along a road, and road markings for waiting and parking controls at the edge of the carriageway, or in the centre of the carriageway, especially where the bays at issue are not, I think, permitted variants under Part 5 of diagram 1028.4.

In any event, whilst the double line might obviously represent the end of an on-street bay because a single or double yellow line usually follows (or there may be no point in marking the bays in the first place), I’m not certain it’s meaning is as plain in an off-street car park particularly where, as in this case, it was mostly obscured by the adjacent vehicle, and no yellow markings were present.

An alternative argument, I think, might be that if on-street upright road signs that control waiting, loading and parking along a road, and road markings for waiting and parking controls at the edge of the carriageway, or in the centre of the carriageway are to be enforced in an off-street car park, then the applicable on-street rules must also apply, and where on the street a vehicle would properly park on an unmarked (and otherwise unrestricted) area of road outside a marked bay without breaking any obvious rule, the same rule must apply off street.

Material representations must be considered and responded to.


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Bahar20
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 21:41
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Thank you very much all for your help. They cancelled the ticket!
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