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Car Towed by Newham council within hours, Car Towed for parking in alleged resident bay
Steven225
post Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 18:24
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Parked at St Lukes sq at 8.50am, there were no visible restriction signs on they bay so I assumed could park there.

When I came back at 11am, I found my car was gone. Called the police and they reported it as stolen. Then I called TRACE, this was out of curiosity and discovered that it was towed away.

So I went to the Car Pound to collect my car and get charged £265! almost half of my monthly wages. On recieving the car I notice a damage dent on the bonnet and scratch near the passenger side wheel arch. I make a huge fuss the chashier took pictures and lies about the damage and they gave me a photocopy of the form below:


Picture after I parked my car at 8.50am ( I have more photos from close-up and distance):




PCN font and back





Tow recovery reciept



Damage form:





Appeal form (provided to me):








Rest of the form


https://postimg.cc/CR7McXJQ
https://postimg.cc/5Xs1Bv2c
https://postimg.cc/CBqgpQHY
https://postimg.cc/CzYV9JZT

I've requested Newham parking's pictures from when they issued the PCN / prior to towing, but they said it is only available after doing a paper appeal which sounds dodgy. I have tried to source pictures from the Newham council but cant find any link to do so.

Please help, how do I go about getting my money back as I have been ripped of by a money grabbing lawless council.

Thanks

This post has been edited by Steven225: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 19:00
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Neil B
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 21:32
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QUOTE (Steven225 @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 19:44) *
There is no way to contact them to request for pictures apart from writing to the appeal address

According to who?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Steven225
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 21:15
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 22:32) *
QUOTE (Steven225 @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 19:44) *
There is no way to contact them to request for pictures apart from writing to the appeal address

According to who?



I have looked and tried and I have not found a way to request photos other than writing through the post man.
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cp8759
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 00:09
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QUOTE (Steven225 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 22:15) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 22:32) *
QUOTE (Steven225 @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 19:44) *
There is no way to contact them to request for pictures apart from writing to the appeal address

According to who?



I have looked and tried and I have not found a way to request photos other than writing through the post man.

Go to https://www.newham.gov.uk/Pages/Services/Pa...-penalties.aspx and click on "Pay your penalty charge notice online.", it should give you the option to view the images. When you click through it also says "If you are unable to view images or make your payment online, call us on 020 8430 2000"

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 00:09


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Steven225
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 07:41
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 01:09) *
QUOTE (Steven225 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 22:15) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 22:32) *
QUOTE (Steven225 @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 19:44) *
There is no way to contact them to request for pictures apart from writing to the appeal address

According to who?



I have looked and tried and I have not found a way to request photos other than writing through the post man.

Go to https://www.newham.gov.uk/Pages/Services/Pa...-penalties.aspx and click on "Pay your penalty charge notice online.", it should give you the option to view the images. When you click through it also says "If you are unable to view images or make your payment online, call us on 020 8430 2000"


Ok I contacted them spoke for 20mins they tried to fob me off saying I should contact the car pound for images as they towed the car , but I persisted and they said they would look into it and took my contact details.

The next day called me back, they claimed since I paid the charge already I can not access the pictures so they would do some BS and I would gain access to them.
They took my email again and claimed I should check my email for the pictures.

Its been 48hrs and no pictues are sent and its weekend and time is running out for the appeal. mad.gif

This post has been edited by Steven225: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 07:42
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cp8759
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 10:42
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Have you checked the website again? If there's nothing there you'll have to call them again on Monday morning. The deadline is 28 days from when you collected the car so you still have some time. However at this point you appear to have at least two if not three grounds to challenge the PCN (and thus the towing):

1: There were no visible signs (this seems to be your main ground of challenge)
2: Procedural unfairness, the council has prevented you from accessing the photographic evidence of the contravention
3: The 0845 fax number on the back of the PCN for making reps by fax includes a 3.5p per minute surcharge (see their admission at https://dochub.com/cp8759-cp8759/Jr3w1g/int...V1wiFLz-MrPLsxw (the argument at ground 4 of http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1404571 can be adapted but do not use it verbatim))


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Steven225
post Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 14:58
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 11:42) *
Have you checked the website again? If there's nothing there you'll have to call them again on Monday morning. The deadline is 28 days from when you collected the car so you still have some time. However at this point you appear to have at least two if not three grounds to challenge the PCN (and thus the towing):

1: There were no visible signs (this seems to be your main ground of challenge)
2: Procedural unfairness, the council has prevented you from accessing the photographic evidence of the contravention
3: The 0845 fax number on the back of the PCN for making reps by fax includes a 3.5p per minute surcharge (see their admission at https://dochub.com/cp8759-cp8759/Jr3w1g/int...V1wiFLz-MrPLsxw (the argument at ground 4 of http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1404571 can be adapted but do not use it verbatim))


Thanks

I still have not recieved the phiotographs of the contavention despite calling them again on Monday to which they confoirmed it has been posted.

NOTE: 7 Working days left to appeal deadline (This is totally unjust)

This post has been edited by Steven225: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 14:58
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cp8759
post Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 17:37
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QUOTE (Steven225 @ Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 15:58) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 11:42) *
Have you checked the website again? If there's nothing there you'll have to call them again on Monday morning. The deadline is 28 days from when you collected the car so you still have some time. However at this point you appear to have at least two if not three grounds to challenge the PCN (and thus the towing):

1: There were no visible signs (this seems to be your main ground of challenge)
2: Procedural unfairness, the council has prevented you from accessing the photographic evidence of the contravention
3: The 0845 fax number on the back of the PCN for making reps by fax includes a 3.5p per minute surcharge (see their admission at https://dochub.com/cp8759-cp8759/Jr3w1g/int...V1wiFLz-MrPLsxw (the argument at ground 4 of http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1404571 can be adapted but do not use it verbatim))


Thanks

I still have not recieved the phiotographs of the contavention despite calling them again on Monday to which they confoirmed it has been posted.

NOTE: 7 Working days left to appeal deadline (This is totally unjust)

Can't they just email them?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Steven225
post Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 15:18
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 18:37) *
QUOTE (Steven225 @ Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 15:58) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 11:42) *
Have you checked the website again? If there's nothing there you'll have to call them again on Monday morning. The deadline is 28 days from when you collected the car so you still have some time. However at this point you appear to have at least two if not three grounds to challenge the PCN (and thus the towing):

1: There were no visible signs (this seems to be your main ground of challenge)
2: Procedural unfairness, the council has prevented you from accessing the photographic evidence of the contravention
3: The 0845 fax number on the back of the PCN for making reps by fax includes a 3.5p per minute surcharge (see their admission at https://dochub.com/cp8759-cp8759/Jr3w1g/int...V1wiFLz-MrPLsxw (the argument at ground 4 of http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1404571 can be adapted but do not use it verbatim))


Thanks

I still have not recieved the phiotographs of the contavention despite calling them again on Monday to which they confoirmed it has been posted.

NOTE: 7 Working days left to appeal deadline (This is totally unjust)

Can't they just email them?


I've called them again and got the same sloppy unhelpful story, apparently it's in the post on the way to me but I have not seen anything.

I am going to run out of appeal time please help me draft an appeal letter.

Thanks

This post has been edited by Steven225: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 17:59
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Steven225
post Fri, 26 Oct 2018 - 09:59
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QUOTE (Steven225 @ Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 16:18) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 18:37) *
QUOTE (Steven225 @ Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 15:58) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 11:42) *
Have you checked the website again? If there's nothing there you'll have to call them again on Monday morning. The deadline is 28 days from when you collected the car so you still have some time. However at this point you appear to have at least two if not three grounds to challenge the PCN (and thus the towing):

1: There were no visible signs (this seems to be your main ground of challenge)
2: Procedural unfairness, the council has prevented you from accessing the photographic evidence of the contravention
3: The 0845 fax number on the back of the PCN for making reps by fax includes a 3.5p per minute surcharge (see their admission at https://dochub.com/cp8759-cp8759/Jr3w1g/int...V1wiFLz-MrPLsxw (the argument at ground 4 of http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1404571 can be adapted but do not use it verbatim))


Thanks

I still have not recieved the phiotographs of the contavention despite calling them again on Monday to which they confoirmed it has been posted.

NOTE: 7 Working days left to appeal deadline (This is totally unjust)

Can't they just email them?


I've called them again and got the same sloppy unhelpful story, apparently it's in the post on the way to me but I have not seen anything.

I am going to run out of appeal time please help me draft an appeal letter.

Thanks


My thoughts exactly, they actively want to inconvenience motorists and they seem to be rolling in cash to pay for postage rather than send a quick free email.

This post has been edited by Steven225: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 - 10:04
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Steven225
post Fri, 26 Oct 2018 - 16:43
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phoned again today told they did not know why i didnt recieve it and they only send by post they would look into it. around 6days left until appeal deadline
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Steven225
post Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 13:22
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Please any help to draft an appeal letter. The council will not send any photos as I have been requesting them for 2weeks on the phone and have still not recieved nothing (only 2/3 days lodge the appeal).

This post has been edited by Steven225: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 13:22
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 13:57
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You were given the start of one up above, 6 days ago.
What have you since done?
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Steven225
post Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 15:43
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 13:57) *
You were given the start of one up above, 6 days ago.
What have you since done?





Note:
1. The appeal is to be written into the form I attached at the start of this post and posted to Newham council.
2. I dont know what box to tick for number 1 below, as the language on the form above is confusing.


Dear Newham Parking,
I am appealing against a parking penalty where my vehicle was removed. I am appealing on the grounds detailed below:

1.What do I put here?
There were no visible signs where I parked/ inappropriate signage.
There were not visible or appropriate signs stating parking contravention were applicable to the bay that I parked in (I have my own photographic evidence of this prior to parking on that day and this is attached and shows this). Additionally, my vehicle was causing no obstruction to ongoing road traffic and thus the contravention never occurred.


2.There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement agency.

Procedural unfairness/ Procedural impropriety
The council has prevented me from accessing the photographic evidence of the contravention. The council repeatedly would not provide me access to photographic evidence despite my contact with them via telephone on 4 occasions to request photographic evidence. This process went on for 2weeks and I am yet to see any photographic evidence and I am forced to lodge my appeal to this unjust process in order to meet the appeal date. I was also not allowed photographic evidence from Newham Council Parking’s website (https://payit.newham.gov.uk/payments/sales/...escription=park) despite numerous attempts to access the photographs.

3. The penalty charge or other charge paid to secure the release of the vehicle exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

The 0845 fax number on the back of the PCN for making representations by fax includes a 3.5p per minute surcharge. You have admitted this at
The penalty charge you issued me exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case: The fax payment option includes a 3.5p per minute surcharge and this results in a demand for payment of a sum which exceeds that authorised under the statutory scheme.


Yours Sincerely
Diligent Motorist

This post has been edited by Steven225: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 16:15
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cp8759
post Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 22:05
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Ground 3 is completely wrong and needs redrafting, I can look at it tomorrow.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Neil B
post Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 22:08
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Deadline is Thursday so you'll have to use the FAX.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Steven225
post Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 00:00
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 22:05) *
Ground 3 is completely wrong and needs redrafting, I can look at it tomorrow.



Ok please help with it as I will send it via 1st class post tomorrow as the deadline is Thursday.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 09:15
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QUOTE (Steven225 @ Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 00:00) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 22:05) *
Ground 3 is completely wrong and needs redrafting, I can look at it tomorrow.



Ok please help with it as I will send it via 1st class post tomorrow as the deadline is Thursday.


That will not cut it. service is deemed to take place two days after posting. You will have to use fax.
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cp8759
post Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 14:26
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Send this by fax, using all italics exactly as I have done below. Make sure you sent it tomorrow at the latest.
---------------------
3. The amounts demanded exceed the amount due in the circumstances of the case:

Despite making numerous attempts to obtain the footage, the council has so far failed to provide any photographic evidence of the alleged contravention. As the deadline for making representations is now almost due, and there is no longer sufficient time for representations to be served by post, I have no choice but to make representations by fax. I am however dismayed to note the fax number provided by the council to make representations is a premium rate 0843 number. The Office of Communications confirms on its website at www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-and-internet/advice-for-consumers/costs-and-billing/how-much-does-a-phone-call-really-cost that:

"The cost of calling 0843, 0844 and 0845 numbers is made up of two parts: an access charge going to your phone company, and a service charge set by the organisation you are calling.

The service charge for calls to 084 numbers is between 0p and 7p per minute
"

Upon looking into the matter a bit further I have found that 0843 are widely used by businesses as a method of generating extra revenue. A quick google search brought me to the pages of numerous telecommunication providers that advertise the revenue generating capabilities of 0843 numbers such as directnumbers.co.uk/numbers/0843 which explains that:

"0843 numbers are a great new range of revenue generating business numbers introduced by OFCOM. Due to the success of 0844 numbers, 0843 prefixes are being used to meet the demands from many businesses. These money making lines can help offset the cost of running technical support line or sales department.".

Needless to say, it is grossly unfair and I contend unlawful for the council to charge any sort of fee in order to receive representation. The council are not entitled to any fees or charges aside from the penalty charge itself, it is not permissible for the council to seek any non-statutory sum whether to offset its administrative costs or for any other purpose. As found by the High Court in London Borough of Camden v The Parking Adjudicator & Ors [2011] EWHC 295 (Admin):

"No doubt any enforcing authority could easily identify the global costs of collecting penalty charges by category and then attempt to divide those costs by the number of penalty charges they expect to recover to determine an administration fee appropriate to each. Yet that is far from the limit of the administrative charges that an inventive enforcing authority might seek to add to the penalty charge authorised by law. Civil enforcement officers must be employed, paid and equipped. There will, in addition, be an administrative superstructure which costs money. It is, submits Mr Coppel, only because the Parking Adjudicators failed to understand that there is a critical difference between the penalty charge and the costs of recovering that charge that they fell into the error of concluding that the penalty charge exceeded the amount prescribed by the statutory scheme. Mr Rogers, who appears for the Parking Adjudicators, submits that whatever label the Council attempt to attach to the 1.3% fee, it is in substance a surcharge that results in a demand for payment of a sum which exceeds that authorised under the statutory scheme."

In this instance the council has to be admired for its inventiveness in using a premium rate 0843 fax number, no doubt to help offset the cost of dealing with representations, but nonetheless I submit this is a procedural impropriety and it also means the amount being demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case. It follows that the penalty charge notice must be cancelled.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 14:27


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Steven225
post Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 21:01
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 14:26) *
Send this by fax, using all italics exactly as I have done below. Make sure you sent it tomorrow at the latest.
---------------------
3. The amounts demanded exceed the amount due in the circumstances of the case:

Despite making numerous attempts to obtain the footage, the council has so far failed to provide any photographic evidence of the alleged contravention. As the deadline for making representations is now almost due, and there is no longer sufficient time for representations to be served by post, I have no choice but to make representations by fax. I am however dismayed to note the fax number provided by the council to make representations is a premium rate 0843 number. The Office of Communications confirms on its website at www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-and-internet/advice-for-consumers/costs-and-billing/how-much-does-a-phone-call-really-cost that:

"The cost of calling 0843, 0844 and 0845 numbers is made up of two parts: an access charge going to your phone company, and a service charge set by the organisation you are calling.

The service charge for calls to 084 numbers is between 0p and 7p per minute
"

Upon looking into the matter a bit further I have found that 0843 are widely used by businesses as a method of generating extra revenue. A quick google search brought me to the pages of numerous telecommunication providers that advertise the revenue generating capabilities of 0843 numbers such as directnumbers.co.uk/numbers/0843 which explains that:

"0843 numbers are a great new range of revenue generating business numbers introduced by OFCOM. Due to the success of 0844 numbers, 0843 prefixes are being used to meet the demands from many businesses. These money making lines can help offset the cost of running technical support line or sales department.".

Needless to say, it is grossly unfair and I contend unlawful for the council to charge any sort of fee in order to receive representation. The council are not entitled to any fees or charges aside from the penalty charge itself, it is not permissible for the council to seek any non-statutory sum whether to offset its administrative costs or for any other purpose. As found by the High Court in London Borough of Camden v The Parking Adjudicator & Ors [2011] EWHC 295 (Admin):

"No doubt any enforcing authority could easily identify the global costs of collecting penalty charges by category and then attempt to divide those costs by the number of penalty charges they expect to recover to determine an administration fee appropriate to each. Yet that is far from the limit of the administrative charges that an inventive enforcing authority might seek to add to the penalty charge authorised by law. Civil enforcement officers must be employed, paid and equipped. There will, in addition, be an administrative superstructure which costs money. It is, submits Mr Coppel, only because the Parking Adjudicators failed to understand that there is a critical difference between the penalty charge and the costs of recovering that charge that they fell into the error of concluding that the penalty charge exceeded the amount prescribed by the statutory scheme. Mr Rogers, who appears for the Parking Adjudicators, submits that whatever label the Council attempt to attach to the 1.3% fee, it is in substance a surcharge that results in a demand for payment of a sum which exceeds that authorised under the statutory scheme."

In this instance the council has to be admired for its inventiveness in using a premium rate 0843 fax number, no doubt to help offset the cost of dealing with representations, but nonetheless I submit this is a procedural impropriety and it also means the amount being demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case. It follows that the penalty charge notice must be cancelled.



This is outstanding.

2018 in the Uk and Neham council do not accept email representations but accept fax premium charge for representations. They will not email photos of the contravention once car has been towed and they tow cars way unfairly for parking in quiet residential areas. This is an obvious money grabbing process.

I hope they don't shoot themselves in the foot denying /refusing all these points raised in the representations.


This post has been edited by Steven225: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 21:08
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Steven225
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 15:33
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Ok this is the latest saga in this **** experience.

I have faxed the document and the online fax is still processing, thats what we think (11pages and its been 60minutes current charge £16)

Have called them up and they cant even confirm the fax is going through, they said call in a couple of days to findout. What happens when they claim that they did not recieve it?

This post has been edited by Steven225: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 15:34
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