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Where have all the old Pepipoo bruisers gone?, Threads merged
pentiumsarebest
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 20:43
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No disrespect is intended to contributers. This is a genuine puzzle for me.

It's been a while since I visited the Pepipoo forums. At least three years.

What a difference!

The advice largely on the speedings section largely seems to consist of "take the points and pay the fine." Whatever happened to the old Pepipoo bruisers who delighted in squeezing the law, suggesting when to go unsigned and challenging procedures? Are there no recent cases drivers can use?

The success list has it's last entry in 2012.

Perhaps there is another newer place the Bad Boys and Girls Club meet.
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post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 20:43
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southpaw82
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 22:29
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QUOTE (pentiumsarebest @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:43) *
suggesting when to go unsigned


That advice is regularly given where it is relevant, i.e. Scotland. Otherwise it’s a surefire way of getting convicted of the s 172 offence.

QUOTE
and challenging procedures?

Nothing wrong with that but if everything appears in order the OP needs to understand it can be an expensive game to lose.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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DancingDad
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 08:08
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I think you also have to remember that police learn from errors and are better at avoiding procedural errors that could be used to escape the fine.
We have seen the same with councils, time was when there were often wording issues to exploit on PCNs, far fewer now.
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seank
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 09:22
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QUOTE (pentiumsarebest @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:43) *
No disrespect is intended to contributers. This is a genuine puzzle for me.

It's been a while since I visited the Pepipoo forums. At least three years.

What a difference!

The advice largely on the speedings section largely seems to consist of "take the points and pay the fine." Whatever happened to the old Pepipoo bruisers who delighted in squeezing the law, suggesting when to go unsigned and challenging procedures? Are there no recent cases drivers can use?

The success list has it's last entry in 2012.

Perhaps there is another newer place the Bad Boys and Girls Club meet.

Exactly my opinion.
Time for some new blood in the Forum as the existing main contributors seem to act like tired, old men.
Honest John's backroom Forum shows the way this Forum is going.
People are advised just to roll over. When I look at the threads where people are advised to take up the fight, certain to win, they do and then lose.
Pity, this used to be an excellent source of useful knowledge and support.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 10:49
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The common points to contest were Vague Locus and out of time NIP, The police are not stupid and have tightened up on these.

Unsigned is now dead and buried in England and Wales, as is the 'PACE witness statement'.

If you think you have better advise, feel free to post.

The worst many face is a course, or the slightly more onerous fixed penalty, contesting that and failing will cost circa £1000 more and for most people is simply not worth the risk (even with a 50% chance of a win for most its simply not worth it). If there is some chance then that is explored, otherwise its a mugs game.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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southpaw82
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 12:37
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QUOTE (seank @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 10:22) *
QUOTE (pentiumsarebest @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:43) *
No disrespect is intended to contributers. This is a genuine puzzle for me.

It's been a while since I visited the Pepipoo forums. At least three years.

What a difference!

The advice largely on the speedings section largely seems to consist of "take the points and pay the fine." Whatever happened to the old Pepipoo bruisers who delighted in squeezing the law, suggesting when to go unsigned and challenging procedures? Are there no recent cases drivers can use?

The success list has it's last entry in 2012.

Perhaps there is another newer place the Bad Boys and Girls Club meet.

Exactly my opinion.
Time for some new blood in the Forum as the existing main contributors seem to act like tired, old men.
Honest John's backroom Forum shows the way this Forum is going.
People are advised just to roll over. When I look at the threads where people are advised to take up the fight, certain to win, they do and then lose.
Pity, this used to be an excellent source of useful knowledge and support.


If an OP has no viable line of defence what do you suggest?


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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seank
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 14:58
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 13:37) *
QUOTE (seank @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 10:22) *
QUOTE (pentiumsarebest @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:43) *
No disrespect is intended to contributers. This is a genuine puzzle for me.

It's been a while since I visited the Pepipoo forums. At least three years.

What a difference!

The advice largely on the speedings section largely seems to consist of "take the points and pay the fine." Whatever happened to the old Pepipoo bruisers who delighted in squeezing the law, suggesting when to go unsigned and challenging procedures? Are there no recent cases drivers can use?

The success list has it's last entry in 2012.

Perhaps there is another newer place the Bad Boys and Girls Club meet.

Exactly my opinion.
Time for some new blood in the Forum as the existing main contributors seem to act like tired, old men.
Honest John's backroom Forum shows the way this Forum is going.
People are advised just to roll over. When I look at the threads where people are advised to take up the fight, certain to win, they do and then lose.
Pity, this used to be an excellent source of useful knowledge and support.


If an OP has no viable line of defence what do you suggest?


Getting some new Forum members who can see the required defence.
If the Forum degenerates into a roll-over and accept it place, the decent rumbustious people leave. That has certainly been the case here.
There is now a clique of people here who agree with each other and generally try to uphold each other's posts, rather than objectively seek to help OPs. They know who they are as their post counts are very high.
I could go back 3 or 4 years and find some really useful people who helped folks. Simply not worth the time or trouble. I base my opinion on the facts I see before me. This place simply isn't what it was and you can see the success rates have fallen away from the results in that section.
Much better Forums now for parking cowboy advice, consumer advice and all the rest. Many of your best contributors are more active there than here. look at school run Mum, for example.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:08
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QUOTE (seank @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:58) *
Getting some new Forum members who can see the required defence.
If the Forum degenerates into a roll-over and accept it place, the decent rumbustious people leave. That has certainly been the case here.
There is now a clique of people here who agree with each other and generally try to uphold each other's posts, rather than objectively seek to help OPs. They know who they are as their post counts are very high.
I could go back 3 or 4 years and find some really useful people who helped folks. Simply not worth the time or trouble. I base my opinion on the facts I see before me. This place simply isn't what it was and you can see the success rates have fallen away from the results in that section.
Much better Forums now for parking cowboy advice, consumer advice and all the rest. Many of your best contributors are more active there than here. look at school run Mum, for example.

What required defence, you can't see something that isn't there.

Perhaps we agree as its the self evident truth, if you feel any case is wrong why not highlight it and explain?

the results rely on people posting, them, doesn't always happen.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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seank
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:19
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:08) *
QUOTE (seank @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:58) *
Getting some new Forum members who can see the required defence.
If the Forum degenerates into a roll-over and accept it place, the decent rumbustious people leave. That has certainly been the case here.
There is now a clique of people here who agree with each other and generally try to uphold each other's posts, rather than objectively seek to help OPs. They know who they are as their post counts are very high.
I could go back 3 or 4 years and find some really useful people who helped folks. Simply not worth the time or trouble. I base my opinion on the facts I see before me. This place simply isn't what it was and you can see the success rates have fallen away from the results in that section.
Much better Forums now for parking cowboy advice, consumer advice and all the rest. Many of your best contributors are more active there than here. look at school run Mum, for example.

What required defence, you can't see something that isn't there.

Perhaps we agree as its the self evident truth, if you feel any case is wrong why not highlight it and explain?

the results rely on people posting, them, doesn't always happen.

The point I make is that you, and half a dozen or so contributors like yourself, simply can't see a defence and unequivocally state that there isn't a defence.
I don't see that on Parking Prankster, MSE and several consumer Forums.
If you can't see how to defend people and just tell them to roll over, which you do, they'd be better off on the other Forums.
If you look at Honest John's backroom Forum, it's exactly the same. The astute posters have left, leaving old men who always advise paying up, accepting the points, buying a tv licence even if you don't need one.... You get the picture.
If you look at the completed case summaries, particularly in the speeding area, either Plod has raised his game remarkably, or you and your clique have lowered yours. I know which I prefer.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:20
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The problem with arms length advice is that it’s rarely as good as face to face. However, I’ve not seen many instances where outright wrong advice is given, or at least left unchallenged. People can only work on the facts presented to them and in the majority of cases those facts present no defence. That’s got nothing to do with “cliques” as you put it but rather the law, correctly applied.

Asking why people don’t recommend the unsigned route, outside of Scotland, demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the law as it stands, and has stood for several years. To do so would be reckless at best and dishonest at worst. If that is the standard of “advice” desired then I’m glad it’s not happening.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:55
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Plod have raised their game, the computerised systems now in use prohibit late first NIPs (and Gidden laid out the law in black and white, erm not that it wasn’t already mind you) for example and they simply don’t miss the six month deadline (as the courts currently interpret it) anymore.
I nearly always add the caveat that nothing mentioned is a defence (not no defence), and often ask extra questions to see if something unmentioned does. I cannot create a defence from thin air.

Also the law has closed the unsigned ‘loophole’ in England and Wales making unsigned (effectively) a more serious offence that the original offence the driver is accused of committing (though for excessive speeders they can still consider not replying as being preferable to the speeding) and while of course we can never encourage/suggest/recommend that the facts can be presented and often have been.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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nigelbb
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:57
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You are conflating speeding & parking "crimes".

Nowadays there is little mileage in fighting a speeding ticket as there are no loopholes & most victims who come on the forums are bang to rights & just need to mitigate the penalty. With regard to speeding the most useful advice is probably regarding S.172 & getting people to unequivocally name a driver rather than doing what might appear to be the correct & honest thing by stating they don't know or naming a couple of drivers. The best advice is usually the pragmatic approach of naming the most likely driver & taking advantage of a SAC rather than a stiff fine & 6 points for FtF.

The council parking forums are very active although there are fewer escape clauses nowadays for just as the police don't often mess up speeding tickets most councils don't mess up parking tickets either. If there are loopholes to be found the experts are here.

Private parking is still a jungle & there are many active posters giving advice many of them like SRM doing the same on MSE. The excesses of the clampers have been outlawed so it's more a war of words on paper so less excitement & emotion.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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Fredd
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 17:47
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QUOTE (seank @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:19) *
The point I make is that you, and half a dozen or so contributors like yourself, simply can't see a defence and unequivocally state that there isn't a defence.
I don't see that on Parking Prankster, MSE and several consumer Forums.
If you can't see how to defend people and just tell them to roll over, which you do, they'd be better off on the other Forums.

TBH to some extent I share your irritation - absolute statements such as "the computerised systems now in use prohibit late first NIPs" are just plain wrong, even if that is the case 99% of the time, and should be caveated, and people should be presented with the alternatives rather than "if I were you" advice. However people who post here for help would only be better off if the results of the advice given on those other forums produced better outcomes than that provided here. If there's one you have in mind that does produce better results, I'd be interested to know which one it is.


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Ocelot
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 17:58
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There do appear to be less options nowadays to suggest as a defence, now that the PACE witness statement has bitten the dust, and the unsigned route for England and Wales has gone (admittedly it went around 2004).

This, coupled with the fact that SACs are being offered more widely now, and for higher speeds, may explain some of the recommendations not to contest so vigorously.

By the way, whatever happened to Mika and Jeffreyarcher?
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andy_foster
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 19:26
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The OP is not alone in noticing a seemingly default position of advising OPs to simply roll over and take it, without bothering to explore whether their posts have disclosed any potentially viable defences.

On several occasions I have pointed out potential or actual defences that the usual suspects have either overlooked, or simply didn't bother to look for. However, on the face of it at least there are fewer viable defences becoming apparent than there were several years ago.

There are still a number of potential/possible general 'loopholes' - simply putting the prosecution to proof on certain matters could defeat them if they are too busy/incompetent/whatever to adduce the necessary evidence. Some police forces still use VASCAR - which was prescribed in 2008 but has never been approved by the Secretary of State. The problems with relying on such 'defences' are that the cost of losing can be considerable, and the courts don't always apply the law correctly when it goes against their skewed perception of justice.


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Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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cp8759
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 21:06
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QUOTE (pentiumsarebest @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:43) *
No disrespect is intended to contributers. This is a genuine puzzle for me.

It's been a while since I visited the Pepipoo forums. At least three years.

What a difference!

The advice largely on the speedings section largely seems to consist of "take the points and pay the fine." Whatever happened to the old Pepipoo bruisers who delighted in squeezing the law, suggesting when to go unsigned and challenging procedures? Are there no recent cases drivers can use?

The success list has it's last entry in 2012.

Perhaps there is another newer place the Bad Boys and Girls Club meet.

Though I am not a lawyer as I understand it the duty of a lawyer (after the standard duties to the court) is to advance the interests of the client, where the client's interest are best advanced by a guilty plea, that is the advice that should be given. Of course, with council civil enforcement it's a different game because it's a ridiculously technical regime where minor errors can win the day, and council staff are not legally trained, hence we seem to win most cases we challenge at the tribunal.

If you think you can put forward a defence in a criminal case, why don't you post yourself?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Monster 900
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 17:53
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 20:26) *
.................... The problems with relying on such 'defences' are that the cost of losing can be considerable, and the courts don't always apply the law correctly when it goes against their skewed perception of justice.


Indeed, as Dr Science and others have found, the police are willing to spend £10K+ to prove their case if a defence is offered as they have almost limitless resources compared to Joe Public. As Andy said the defendant is then liable for these inflated costs if they lose in the the magistrates' court lottery.

I personally stopped giving advice in the speeding section when Idris Francis lost his case in the ECHR regarding self incrimination and the government cynically doubled the penalty for FTF.

This post has been edited by Monster 900: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 19:05


--------------------
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

Links :- 1. NIP Wizard, 2. Speeding - Likely penalty calculator, 3. How to deal with PPC tickets.
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seank
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 19:21
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Dr Science inflated his role and was asking to lose his case. I know him very well. He was a lab technician at Sheffield Polytechnic. He thought he had a logical defence to his speeding summons, but simple physics could have shown him the fallacy.
Good to see that andy foster and Monster are still here, old bruisers by any description. I value your contributions greatly and wondered why you seemed to have stopped posting.
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The Slithy Tove
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 07:17
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QUOTE (Ocelot @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 18:58) *
This, coupled with the fact that SACs are being offered more widely now, and for higher speeds, may explain some of the recommendations not to contest so vigorously.

And the fact that fighting a speeding ticket in court and losing can now be a very expensive lesson (I guess it's much more than maybe it used to be). So it becomes a sort of bet £100 to make it "go away" or potentially be out of pocket by many hundreds or more. It's up to the OP in the end, but the real chances of actually winning in court are made clear here.

Also, I agree with nigelbb that some people seem to be confusing the regular "fight back" assistance on the private parking tickets forum compared with going up against the criminal law (speeding etc.) or penalties covered by statute (council tickets). All three are very different animals.
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seank
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 09:02
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QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 08:17) *
QUOTE (Ocelot @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 18:58) *
This, coupled with the fact that SACs are being offered more widely now, and for higher speeds, may explain some of the recommendations not to contest so vigorously.

And the fact that fighting a speeding ticket in court and losing can now be a very expensive lesson (I guess it's much more than maybe it used to be). So it becomes a sort of bet £100 to make it "go away" or potentially be out of pocket by many hundreds or more. It's up to the OP in the end, but the real chances of actually winning in court are made clear here.

Also, I agree with nigelbb that some people seem to be confusing the regular "fight back" assistance on the private parking tickets forum compared with going up against the criminal law (speeding etc.) or penalties covered by statute (council tickets). All three are very different animals.

If we followed the logic in your first sentence, everyone would just pay up. I reckon this is what happens in 99% of speeding, parking and similar offences.
The magistrates' court used to be called the Police court. Your chances of winning there are remote. About 25%, from memory. Your route is to appeal to the Crown Court if you're unreasonably convicted by the mags, and then further to the Court of Appeal. Your chances of proving your innocence increase markedly. Around 65% chance of winning from memory.

I came here about 12 years ago, having been pinged by PC Peter Bernard Cole, of Humberside Police, who was sitting in a scammer van with his LTI2020, on Thorpe Lane (Road?) at Howden East Yorkshire.
The advice I got here then led me to the Crown Court before I was given the full, unexpurgated video of Cole's 90 minutes session.
It showed him scamming / scanning everything that moved. Unfortunately for him, he used his device on an old lady cycling along the footpath, a milk float and a bird on a lamp post.
60% of the victims weren't speeding at all, questioning his judgement.
In court, I asked him to describe his actions in using the LTI. He just pointed and pinged, whereas the law says he must form prior opinion and then use the LTI to corroborate that.
I was awarded £1457.32 compensation from Humberside Police. There will be a bad boys thread somewhere.
My success was entirely down to this Forum. They gave me all the ammunition I needed and I went to town on PC Cole in a packed Hull Crown Court.

In those days, there really were bruisers here, who could help people. Maybe there still are.
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