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LCP PCN Harslden Plaza Car Park
John Bravo
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 11:28
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Hi All,
This is a new PCN. I think this is becoming my new hobby :-)


The duration is 3h30min
The driver has paid for the 1st hour then was held by a physiotherapist and bought a ticket for another 1h. There is still 1h30min of unpaid parking.

This £100 does not look like a fair penalty considering the contravention.
Please advise.
Best regards,

This post has been edited by John Bravo: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 20:04
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post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 11:28
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Redivi
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 13:11
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"If, after a period of 28 days, (beginning with the day after this notice is given), the amount requested in this Notice has not been paid in full, (or we have not informed of the driver's name and current address) you, the registered keeper will, if the conditions set out in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 are met, be liable to pay this unpaid Parking Charge"

I don't think it's nit-picking to argue that 9(2)(f) hasn't been met

POFA doesn't say that the registered keeper becomes liable for charge

Legal liability is the responsibility that someone has for their actions
If a keeper wasn't driving, he didn't commit the action
The liability therefore remains that of the driver
It's a thin argument that he becomes legally responsible for actions - failing to identify the driver - when he had no obligation to do so

What the PPC can acquire is a right to recover the driver's liability from the keeper (who may or may not be the registered keeper)

Parliament made the clear distinction when POFA 4(5) stated what the PPC could and could not recover
If the keeper actually became liable for the charge, he would also be liable for all the costs of collecting the charge

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John Bravo
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 15:06
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QUOTE
Dear Sirs

I refer to the above PCN dated X/X/X.

Please note that the PCN fails to meet the obligations of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, Section 9 which states:
“describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;

I was not the driver and I look forward to receiving your confirmation that the PCN has been cancelled by return.

Yours faithfully


or should I go with a template from here:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=4816822
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John Bravo
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 20:31
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please confirm that I can use one or both of these points in my reps

c). describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;
f). warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 07:17
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as pointed out, both can be used.

I wouldnt use te the MSE template for this.
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Macapaca
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 07:38
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There is no harm in using both points plus frustration of contract as suggested previously by Nosferatu. I would keep it simple on the lines of your draft rather than use one of the templates. I wouldn't agonise over it too much because LCP will reject it anyway and POPLA will probably adjudge that the PCN was correctly issued. Hence my previous advise that you should make it clear that you will not be paying LCP anything and then tough it out through the debt collection letter stage. They will pester you if they think you are a soft touch. The chances of them taking it to court are very slim.
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John Bravo
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 09:39
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QUOTE (Macapaca @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 08:38) *
There is no harm in using both points plus frustration of contract as suggested previously by Nosferatu. I would keep it simple on the lines of your draft rather than use one of the templates. I wouldn't agonise over it too much because LCP will reject it anyway and POPLA will probably adjudge that the PCN was correctly issued. Hence my previous advise that you should make it clear that you will not be paying LCP anything and then tough it out through the debt collection letter stage. They will pester you if they think you are a soft touch. The chances of them taking it to court are very slim.


Ok, can I just state this?
QUOTE
Dear Sirs

I refer to the above PCN xxx
The driver because of unforeseen circumstances could not precisely comply with your contract, but made attempts to.

Please note that the PCN fails to meet the obligations of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, Section 9 which states:
1. “describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable"
2. "warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given"

I was not the driver and I look forward to receiving your confirmation that the PCN has been cancelled by return.

Yours faithfully


This post has been edited by John Bravo: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 09:39
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 09:43
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That does not state frustratoin. Use the exact term, frustration of contract.
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John Bravo
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 11:57
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 10:43) *
That does not state frustratoin. Use the exact term, frustration of contract.

Ok, done that.
Thank you!
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John Bravo
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 12:16
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Hi again,
I have the rejection from LCP and code to appeal at POPLA.
I have 28 days from 10th of July to appeal at POPLA.
They have sent a bunch of stuff in the email: BPA code of practice, ANPR TariffBoard Entrance images, LCP Park Information, their reply and POPLA form in DOCX.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 12:38
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Well you wont use any form
Do what everyone does, create a word doc with embedded evidence in it. Save as PDF, and upload on the website under other. Easy.

Show us your draft when youve got it ready. Rejection was expected.
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John Bravo
post Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 22:14
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I don't think I have any evidence.
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ostell
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 06:40
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I you will lose the change to appeal to POPLA very soon.

Your evidence is to list the POFA failures, your belief that they dint have a contract and you want them to procve that they havfe an actual contract. Look aroound
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Macapaca
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 07:33
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Your POPLA appeal should use the same evidence that you have been discussing so far in this thread! Post your draft here so that you can get some feedback on presentation and wording.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 08:04
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You waited 3 weeks, wasting 3 weeks of your 28 days, to tell us nothing of any use?

Show us your appeal
today

It should be written now, and the evidence was given already. Get on with it!
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John Bravo
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 11:13
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Hi agian,
My apologies, but I was very busy last week and completely forgot to write this draft.

QUOTE
Dear Sir/Madam,

Re: Parking Charge Reference number XXXXXXXX Vehicle registration: XXXXXXX
I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and have received the above demand from LCP Parking Services.
My appeal to Parking Eye was rejected and they gave me POPLA code XXXXXXX.

The basis of my appeal is:

1. PCN fails to meet the obligations of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, Section 9 which states:
a). “describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable"
b). "warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given"
2. unforeseen circumstances, frustration of contract


I understand that at this point I should elaborate more on unforeseen circumstances, frustration of contract.
So far I have not stated who was the driver.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 11:56
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Wel you of coruse still dont state who the driver was....

You prove 1, by including copies of the NtK that omit these details. State that the requirements of POFA are strict and simple to follow, and a failure to include mandatory informaiton means they have failed to engage keeper liabilty, and a keeper appellant must succeed in this appeal.

Forfrustration - remember witness testimony IS evidence, so a witness statement (from an "occupant") PLUS anything you haveto show why the contract was frustrated (appointment overran could not leave etc)
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John Bravo
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 17:59
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Great, at POPLA should I select "Other grounds for appeal"? It says Appeals based solely on the following grounds for appeal are less likely to be successful.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 19:34
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Gah!

Yes you pick other

If you'd look3d into it, you'd have seen that popla has that written before they'd heard ANY APPEALS AT ALL
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John Bravo
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 22:51
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I think I am going to drop the frustration of contract bit because I am unable to get the witness statement on time.
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Macapaca
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 06:32
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I would still leave it in. It would be stronger with some evidence of course but still true without.
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