Kernow Parking Solutions Mousehole-out of time for POFA? Options

[kaffenback]

I have been requested to have a look at a PCN received by my wife's coworker, as keeper, re parking in the above car park without a ticket. I can post up a redacted scan if necessary but the first point is around timing. There was no ticket placed on the vehicle, the ticket is an NTK, the parking episode was on 29.12.18, the NTK is dated 10.1.19 and states that it is deemed to have been given to the keeper on the second working day after that date. As 10.1.19 was a Thursday, two working days after is, I assume, yesterday Monday 14.1.19, 16 days after the parking episode, therefore is it out of time for POFA to apply? There is no mention of POFA on the NTK and it only states that as the registered keeper they are 'invited to' pay the charge or notify them of the driver's id and address and pass the NTK on to them. KPS are members of the IAS unfortunately...

EDIT: here is the NTK





This post has been edited by kaffenback: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 13:07

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[ostell]

Send them this and then ignore, but keep any letters sent but do not ignore if you get a "Letter Before Claim" or similar wording.

Do not appeal to the IAS as you will lose.


Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc


Either post on their website but take a screen print of the pages or send by first class mail and get a free certificate of posting from a post office

[bearclaw]

Thats right by the old Coastguard building as well, it might be worth looking for the byelaws and seeing if it's actually relevant land or not.

[ostell]

Just get that letter off. Investigate the rest for later.

[kaffenback]

Thanks Ostell, I am glad the situation is as I suspected and I will pass on your suggested letter and advice. BTW have KPS ever been known to get as far as court?

[Red Rock]

Just going through the same with KPS in the same location,will let you know what happens.

[kaffenback]

The keeper sent me a photo of the KPS response, the main point of which is that they are not relying on POFA and they have 6 years to pursue their claim. Interestingly in this case the keeper genuinely is not the driver, which just goes to show why it is wrong for any claim to be made of the keeper of a vehicle, under POFA or not. It includes the phrases "you agreed to the terms and conditions" and "you were not displaying a ticket in the windscreen" in a letter to the keeper, which are obviously not valid claims.

The keeper, my wife's work colleague, was talking about paying, so I am keen to reassure them that this claim against them has no legs and zero chance of going anywhere near a court.

EDIT: in particular the bit about it being seen in court as unreasonable behaviour to withhold evidence regarding the driver.

This post has been edited by kaffenback: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 00:45

[kaffenback]

Just going through the same with KPS in the same location,will let you know what happens.

Convention on here is that you start your own thread, partly (as I understand it) as the circumstances are never identical, so there is always a need for specific advice and also it helps the community to see how each case proceeds. It would be great if you could start your own thread, including posting redacted pictures of any letters received, and good luck.

EDIT: duh just spotted the thread you already started

This post has been edited by kaffenback: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 11:23

[The Slithy Tove]

The keeper sent me a photo of the KPS response, the main point of which is that they are not relying on POFA and they have 6 years to pursue their claim.

You need to make sure the keeper

• Doesn't get panicked by the inevitable flurry of threats they'll get from debt collectors and the like.
• Keeps all the paperwork and anything received for the next 6 years
• Keeps an eye out for any Letter Before Claim or an actual claim, and does not ignore it.
• Makes a note of the circumstances, the events, etc. NOW, so that if a claim does arise in a couple of years, it won't be hazy memories being relied upon.

[nosferatu1001]

" in particular the bit about it being seen in court as unreasonable behaviour to withhold evidence regarding the driver. "

Thats complete and utter crap.
Challenge KPS to provide proof of this, using a court trnscript.

Point out to them you were nto the driver, and so any claim against you is doomed to failure. You have no liability in this matter, and invite them to take this to court within 28 days if they believe they have a valid claim against you as the keeper. You will adduce evidence that shows you were not the driver, tKPS have stated they are not using nor are they compliant with POFA, and so you cannot have any liability.
Of course, as they are aware their claim has no chance of success, actually starting a claim in those circumstances will be an abuse of process, as it is only done out of harassment. You will ensure the claim is struck out and yoru full costs paid, including costs for actually unreaosnable behaviour under CPR27.14(s)(g)

They should pay attention to their "guild lines" and perhaps concoct something that doesnt look like the office junior wrote it next time.

[kaffenback]

Question: the letter states that the charge has been issued within the guild lines [sic] of the IPC and DVLA, but they admit they are not attempting to use POFA so can the keeper now send an "OBJECTION TO PROCESSING AND FORMAL REQUEST FOR DATA ERASURE" as per http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=1423917 ?

[nosferatu1001]

Yes
Expect them to ignore it
You then complain to the ICO.
Expect the ICO to fail to understand.

[kaffenback]

Yes
Expect them to ignore it
You then complain to the ICO.
Expect the ICO to fail to understand.

Aah so not that advantageous, therefore not a great thing for a full time working mother to spend their valuable time on..

[nosferatu1001]

It takes you two seconds to do, and puts makes them do some work.

[kaffenback]

It takes you two seconds to do, and puts makes them do some work.

Just to remind you, the keeper is my wife's work colleague, I am definitely not a full time working mum Like most normal people who don't hang around forums like this, the keeper just wants to avoid paying, but with the least hassle in dealing with it.

[cabbyman]

To avoid paying will include a certain amount of hassle but it will be satisfying at the end of it!

[ostell]

So if you read that letter they are so unsure of themselves that they are offering another discount in the hope that the keeper feels pressured into paying to avoid the increased rate.

So the keeper now gets some evidence, if they can, that they were elsewhere at the time of alleged breach and cannot have been the driver. As they have stated that they are not relying on POFA then what are they relying on?

Just keep all the paperwork

[kaffenback]

Update: after another rather tame letter from KPS (don't have it to hand but the keeper has been advised to keep all letters) which basically invited the keeper to pay or they would hand it to debt recovery, my wife's colleague, the keeper, has now had her first debt recovery letter:



Again the keeper is rather nervous so any help to reassure them would be much appreciated, in particular they are worried about being able to prove that the NTK was out of time. DRP appear to be pretending that they don't know that KPS have admitted already that they are not relying on POFA. The invitation to phone in to clarify if they are liable is of course a big stinky trap and I will advise never to phone either KPS or DRP. DRP have added pressure by saying they will assume the keeper has admitted liability if they don't hear from the keeper (cheeky feckers ). Does this need a 'debt denied, cease and desist' type written or email response to knock that idea on the head? Naturally DRP throw in the stock phrase about recommending court action if no payment received

[ostell]

It needs a large "IGNORE" (but file away).

There will be several DRP letters and a letter appearing to be from a solicitor but asking you to pay DRP. Guess who that letter is from.

THere will be inducements to pay something by making special one off offers of a reduced rate.

Come back if it ever gets to a letter Before Claim