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Tow legal for residential area?
supa
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 21:20
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My dad was visiting overnight and parked in a residential parking bay which requires a permit 10am-2pm (in Canning town). We completely forgot to put the guest permit on his dashboard in the morning at 10 am, and didn't remember until around 12pm by which time we saw it had already been towed away.

Is it legal for them to tow? I thought he would have just got a PCN ticket but had to pay the £200 tow fee too (£265 total). It was properly parked in the bay and wasn't obstructing anything.
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supa
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 12:40
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QUOTE (spaceman @ Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 11:32) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 20:17) *
When I collected my vehicle, I was given some paperwork to sign but nothing was explained to me about appeals, I accept the vehicle release form includes the words "I have been advised of my right to appeal against a parking penalty" but in reality I was not advised of any such right verbally, nor was I given any written documentation concerning how I might appeal. T

So why did he sign to say he had then?

Remember, adjudicators are judicial appointees and I can assure you they will totally disregard this comment if it ends up before them.

Does that part need to be changed? More importantly do I need to add about the towing being excessive since it was parked properly in a parking bay and there was a free space next to it, thus it not preventing other residents from parking? I'm not sure of the deadline but it will be posted from Kent so it will take a little longer to reach Newham council, I don't know if this is the final draft that should be posted?
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John U.K.
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 13:31
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QUOTE (supa @ Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 12:40) *
QUOTE (spaceman @ Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 11:32) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 20:17) *
When I collected my vehicle, I was given some paperwork to sign but nothing was explained to me about appeals, I accept the vehicle release form includes the words "I have been advised of my right to appeal against a parking penalty" but in reality I was not advised of any such right verbally, nor was I given any written documentation concerning how I might appeal. T

So why did he sign to say he had then?

Remember, adjudicators are judicial appointees and I can assure you they will totally disregard this comment if it ends up before them.

Does that part need to be changed? More importantly do I need to add about the towing being excessive since it was parked properly in a parking bay and there was a free space next to it, thus it not preventing other residents from parking? I'm not sure of the deadline but it will be posted from Kent so it will take a little longer to reach Newham council, I don't know if this is the final draft that should be posted?


Probably.
The fact is that he did sign "I have been advised of my right to appeal against a parking penalty"

What is totally unclear is how he was so advised, He is unlikely to be aware of the necessity for such advice to have been in writing. One can envisage someone releasing a vehicle from the pound asking the attendant
"Is there anything I can do about this?" or some such.

Replies might vary. e.g.
"You can appeal" and /or
"the back of the PCN tells you how to appeal"

Or there might have been an unsolicited "You can always appeal".

Or the motorist might have seen that the PCN had advice on appealing.

Or in signing the statement the motorist may have thought that the statement itself was advising him of the right of appeal.

Anyof these or a similar comment may have led the motorist to be able to truthfully sign "I have been advised of my right to appeal against a parking penalty"

Only your father knows what actually transpired at the pound.
It might be worth questioning him further to see if he has any recollections.



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supa
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 14:04
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 13:31) *
QUOTE (supa @ Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 12:40) *
QUOTE (spaceman @ Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 11:32) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 20:17) *
When I collected my vehicle, I was given some paperwork to sign but nothing was explained to me about appeals, I accept the vehicle release form includes the words "I have been advised of my right to appeal against a parking penalty" but in reality I was not advised of any such right verbally, nor was I given any written documentation concerning how I might appeal. T

So why did he sign to say he had then?

Remember, adjudicators are judicial appointees and I can assure you they will totally disregard this comment if it ends up before them.

Does that part need to be changed? More importantly do I need to add about the towing being excessive since it was parked properly in a parking bay and there was a free space next to it, thus it not preventing other residents from parking? I'm not sure of the deadline but it will be posted from Kent so it will take a little longer to reach Newham council, I don't know if this is the final draft that should be posted?


Probably.
The fact is that he did sign "I have been advised of my right to appeal against a parking penalty"

What is totally unclear is how he was so advised, He is unlikely to be aware of the necessity for such advice to have been in writing. One can envisage someone releasing a vehicle from the pound asking the attendant
"Is there anything I can do about this?" or some such.

Replies might vary. e.g.
"You can appeal" and /or
"the back of the PCN tells you how to appeal"

Or there might have been an unsolicited "You can always appeal".

Or the motorist might have seen that the PCN had advice on appealing.

Or in signing the statement the motorist may have thought that the statement itself was advising him of the right of appeal.

Anyof these or a similar comment may have led the motorist to be able to truthfully sign "I have been advised of my right to appeal against a parking penalty"

Only your father knows what actually transpired at the pound.
It might be worth questioning him further to see if he has any recollections.

I already did, he said at no point was an appeal mentioned in any way.

I'm new to this but it seems as if the current draft is only appealing the PCN and tow on the grounds of it not exceeding 10 minutes (due to the seconds not being visible) and I wondered could they not simply argue that it is highly unlikely that it was issued at 10:10:00 and that as long as it is 10:10:01 or after then it satisfies the requirement. My point being if that fails isn't it a good idea to mention (as a backup argument) about the towing being excessive since it was parked properly in a parking bay and there was a free space next to it, thus it not preventing other residents from parking?

Meaning that if the PCN isn't found to be unlawful, at least the towing might be? How do appeals work, is it better to only use one argument or the other?
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hcandersen
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 18:10
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simply argue that it is highly unlikely that it was issued at 10:10:00 and that as long as it is 10:10:01 or after then it satisfies the requirement.

Who cares when it was issued, wrapped, enveloped, stuck under a windscreen, the regs don't as has been spelled out.

The PCN says it all, and it's improper: a contravention at 10.00, as it states clearly, cannot give rise to a penalty because the authority are not empowered to demand one.

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supa
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 18:17
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 18:10) *
simply argue that it is highly unlikely that it was issued at 10:10:00 and that as long as it is 10:10:01 or after then it satisfies the requirement.

Who cares when it was issued, wrapped, enveloped, stuck under a windscreen, the regs don't as has been spelled out.

The PCN says it all, and it's improper: a contravention at 10.00, as it states clearly, cannot give rise to a penalty because the authority are not empowered to demand one.

Thanks. So it's the final draft and ready to send? I just wanted to double check nothing needs to be added (like the excessive towing).

This post has been edited by supa: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 18:20
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John U.K.
post Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 21:24
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QUOTE
I just wanted to double check nothing needs to be added (like the excessive towing).


If you are using CP's draft in post #35,

I would be tempted to add a sentence along the lines of

If, despite the foregoing, the Council insist the PCN was still justified, I ask the Council to explain how the subsequent removal was proportionate to the nature of the alleged contravention.

This means you will not be springing disputing the removal out of a hat if/when you reach adjudication.

Wait to see what CP and others say.
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supa
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 10:41
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 21:24) *
QUOTE
I just wanted to double check nothing needs to be added (like the excessive towing).


If you are using CP's draft in post #35,

I would be tempted to add a sentence along the lines of

If, despite the foregoing, the Council insist the PCN was still justified, I ask the Council to explain how the subsequent removal was proportionate to the nature of the alleged contravention.

This means you will not be springing disputing the removal out of a hat if/when you reach adjudication.

Wait to see what CP and others say.

So we don't need to mention the free space in the bay to demonstrate our point?
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John U.K.
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 10:57
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QUOTE
If, despite the foregoing, the Council insist the PCN was still justified, I ask the Council to explain how the subsequent removal was proportionate to the nature of the alleged contravention.


QUOTE
So we don't need to mention the free space in the bay to demonstrate our point?


No need. The idea behind my sentence is to put the onus on the Council to show proportionality, rather than your asserting it was disproportionate (you can save that for Tribunal): they may simply come back with a "We can do it so we did" type of reply without fully considering what you asked for.

How long elapsed between time of issuing PCN and time of the removal?
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supa
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 14:54
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 10:57) *
QUOTE
If, despite the foregoing, the Council insist the PCN was still justified, I ask the Council to explain how the subsequent removal was proportionate to the nature of the alleged contravention.


QUOTE
So we don't need to mention the free space in the bay to demonstrate our point?


No need. The idea behind my sentence is to put the onus on the Council to show proportionality, rather than your asserting it was disproportionate (you can save that for Tribunal): they may simply come back with a "We can do it so we did" type of reply without fully considering what you asked for.

How long elapsed between time of issuing PCN and time of the removal?

Tue 12th March. But my dad will post the letter from Kent so it will take a little extra time to reach them. Do we have to include the pictures when posting? I was thinking maybe the deadline for appeal is 28 days?
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 15:33
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You have 28 days from the date you picked up the car to serve your representations on the council so if posting do so leaving at least 2 working days clear. Also do not send signed for or recorded. Just get a free proof of posting certificate from the post office


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supa
post Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 11:00
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 15:33) *
You have 28 days from the date you picked up the car to serve your representations on the council so if posting do so leaving at least 2 working days clear. Also do not send signed for or recorded. Just get a free proof of posting certificate from the post office

Nobody seems to be answering to confirm me sending it off...?

This post has been edited by supa: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 11:01
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John U.K.
post Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 11:58
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QUOTE
Nobody seems to be answering to confirm me sending it off...?


Please post your final draft here for comment.

Also, I asked
How long elapsed between time of issuing PCN and time of the removal?

which remains unaswered.
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supa
post Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 14:21
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 11:58) *
Also, I asked
How long elapsed between time of issuing PCN and time of the removal?

which remains unaswered.

Oh sorry I misread your question. 10.10am PCN issued and tow occurred at 11.15am. The exact time was shown on the link from Newham website (the info was taken down when we paid) but I remember it being 11.15am, so one hour five minutes. Do I have to include the pics in the envelope when posting? Also I'm not even 100% sure which is the correct address to send to since the Newham website says if the car is removed the procedure is different, and it then directs to:

Appeal against a vehicle removal
If your vehicle is removed and you feel it should not have been, you can make an appeal against the penalty charge notice and removal. However you can only do this after you have paid to release your vehicle.

Details on how to do this will be given to you at the vehicle pound. You must make your appeal within 28 days of collecting your vehicle.

https://www.newham.gov.uk/Pages/Services/Cl...avehicleremoval
https://www.newham.gov.uk/Pages/Services/Pa...-penalties.aspx

If someone knows for sure the correct address please let me know, the following address is found under appealing PCNs (which I hope should still be correct)

Final draft:

L B Newham Parking Correspondence
PO Box 71575
London
E6 9LY

Dear Sir or Madam,

I contest liability against PCN PN19943358 and the subsequent removal. My vehicle had been lawfully parked prior to 10 am, the CEO first observed my vehicle at 10:04 and a PCN was served at 10:10 am. I draw your attention to regulations 4(2), (3) and (4) of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 which provide as follows:

(2) Paragraph (3) applies in relation to a contravention mentioned in subparagraph (a) to (с) of paragraph (1) where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period.

(3) No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes.

(4) In this regulation—

(a) “designated parking place” means a parking place established by virtue of an order made under section 1, 6, 9, 32(1)(b), 35 or 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984(3);
(b) “permitted parking period” means—
(I) a period of parking that has been paid for as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place; or
(ii) a period of parking for which no charge is payable as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place.

The PCN was issued at 10:10 am, when the permitted parking period had not yet exceeded 10 minutes, it follows that no penalty was payable at the time. It follows that the penalty charge and subsequent towing fees must be refunded in full.

Further to this, regulation 11(1) and (2) of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 provides that:

11.—(1) This regulation applies to a person where, as respects a vehicle which has been found in a civil enforcement area for parking contraventions and removed under regulations made under section 99 of the 1984 Act—

(a)he is required to pay an amount on recovery of the vehicle under section 101A of that Act;
(b)he receives a sum in respect of the vehicle under section 101A(2) of that Act;
©he is informed that the proceeds of sale of the vehicle did not exceed the aggregate amount mentioned in that provision; or
(d)he is informed that the vehicle was disposed of without there being any proceeds of sale.

(2) A person to whom paragraph (1) applies shall immediately upon the happening of an occurrence referred to in paragraph (1) be informed—

(a) of his right to make representations to the enforcement authority in accordance with this regulation; and
(b) of his right to appeal to an adjudicator if his representations are not accepted,
and that information must include a statement of the effect of paragraphs (4) and (5).

When I collected my vehicle, I was given some paperwork to sign but nothing was explained to me about appeals, I accept the vehicle release form includes the words "I have been advised of my right to appeal against a parking penalty" but in reality I was not advised of any such right verbally, nor was I given any written documentation concerning how I might appeal. This failure to provide information about how the penalty and towing charges may be appealed amount to a procedural impropriety which means the penalty charge must be cancelled.

If, despite the foregoing, the Council insist the PCN was still justified, I ask the Council to explain how the subsequent removal was proportionate to the nature of the alleged contravention.

In light of the above, please would you arrange a full refund to be paid into account 00000000, sort code 00-00-00.

This post has been edited by supa: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 - 10:08
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cp8759
post Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 14:29
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Looks good to me, just make sure the bits of quoted legislation are in italics.


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John U.K.
post Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 14:45
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Address probably correct. Post 1st class at Post Office Counter and get (free) proof of posting.
IF CP says OK to go then OK to go, but give others 24 hours to comment.

I've tweaked your draft to show the formatting CP recommended.

Obviously, you father must sign and give his address.
Thanks for the timings - I'll save comment/explanation for the next stage (if they reject your reps).

Insert the words in blue.



QUOTE (supa @ Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 14:21) *
QUOTE (John U.K. @ Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 11:58) *
Also, I asked
How long elapsed between time of issuing PCN and time of the removal?

which remains unaswered.

Oh sorry I misread your question. 10.10am PCN issued and tow occurred at 11.15am. The exact time was shown on the link from Newham website (the info was taken down when we paid) but I remember it being 11.15am, so one hour five minutes. Do I have to include the pics in the envelope when posting? Also I'm not even 100% sure which is the correct address to send to since the Newham website says if the car is removed the procedure is different, and it then directs to:

Appeal against a vehicle removal
If your vehicle is removed and you feel it should not have been, you can make an appeal against the penalty charge notice and removal. However you can only do this after you have paid to release your vehicle.

Details on how to do this will be given to you at the vehicle pound. You must make your appeal within 28 days of collecting your vehicle.

https://www.newham.gov.uk/Pages/Services/Cl...avehicleremoval
https://www.newham.gov.uk/Pages/Services/Pa...-penalties.aspx

If someone knows for sure the correct address please let me know, the following address is found under appealing PCNs (which I hope should still be correct)
--------------------------
Final draft:

L B Newham Parking Correspondence
PO Box 71575
London
E6 9LY

Delete this (you've put it in the correct place below)If, despite the foregoing, the Council insist the PCN was still justified, I ask the Council to explain how the subsequent removal was proportionate to the nature of the alleged contravention.

Dear Sir or Madam,

I contest liability against PCN PN19943358 and the subsequent removal. My vehicle had been lawfully parked prior to 10 am, the CEO first observed my vehicle at 10:04 and a PCN was served at 10:10 am. I draw your attention to regulations 4(2), (3) and (4) of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 which provide as follows:

(2) Paragraph (3) applies in relation to a contravention mentioned in subparagraph (a) to (с) of paragraph (1) where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period.

(3) No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes.

(4) In this regulation—

(a) “designated parking place” means a parking place established by virtue of an order made under section 1, 6, 9, 32(1)(b), 35 or 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984(3);
(b) “permitted parking period” means—
(I) a period of parking that has been paid for as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place; or
(ii) a period of parking for which no charge is payable as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place.


The PCN was issued at 10:10 am, when the permitted parking period had not yet exceeded 10 minutes, it follows that no penalty was payable at the time. It follows that the penalty charge and subsequent towing fees must be refunded in full.

Further to this, regulation 11(1) and (2) of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 provides that:

11.—(1) This regulation applies to a person where, as respects a vehicle which has been found in a civil enforcement area for parking contraventions and removed under regulations made under section 99 of the 1984 Act—

(a)he is required to pay an amount on recovery of the vehicle under section 101A of that Act;
(b)he receives a sum in respect of the vehicle under section 101A(2) of that Act;
©he is informed that the proceeds of sale of the vehicle did not exceed the aggregate amount mentioned in that provision; or
(d)he is informed that the vehicle was disposed of without there being any proceeds of sale.

(2) A person to whom paragraph (1) applies shall immediately upon the happening of an occurrence referred to in paragraph (1) be informed—

(a) of his right to make representations to the enforcement authority in accordance with this regulation; and
(b) of his right to appeal to an adjudicator if his representations are not accepted,
and that information must include a statement of the effect of paragraphs (4) and (5).

When I collected my vehicle, I was given some paperwork to sign but nothing was explained to me about appeals, I accept the vehicle release form includes the words "I have been advised of my right to appeal against a parking penalty" but in reality I was not advised of any such right verbally, nor was I given any written documentation concerning how I might appeal. This failure to provide information about how the penalty and towing charges may be appealed amount to a procedural impropriety which means the penalty charge must be cancelled.

If, despite the foregoing, the Council insist the PCN was still justified, I ask the Council to explain how the subsequent removal was proportionate to the nature of the alleged contravention.

In light of the above, please would you arrange a full refund to be paid into account 00000000, sort code 00-00-00.


This post has been edited by John U.K.: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 14:49
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supa
post Sun, 24 Mar 2019 - 10:16
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Sat, 23 Mar 2019 - 14:45) *
Address probably correct. Post 1st class at Post Office Counter and get (free) proof of posting.
IF CP says OK to go then OK to go, but give others 24 hours to comment.
I've tweaked your draft to show the formatting CP recommended.
Obviously, you father must sign and give his address.

Thanks, I've amended the draft above, let me know if that's everything. I'll get my dad to sign and post with proof of postage Mon morning. So I'm assuming there's no need to enclose the pics when sending?

This post has been edited by supa: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 - 10:17
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supa
post Wed, 8 May 2019 - 17:53
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I've received the scans of the rejection letter from Newham Council. Hope someone can advise and help me draft a tribunal appeal soon as the deadline is 28/5/19:

https://mega.nz/#F!JkQlmIIY!jDZ0cfxUC4Bd4OIHZeoAqA
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supa
post Thu, 9 May 2019 - 13:47
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Anyone?
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 9 May 2019 - 13:59
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You might as well appeal to the adjudicator, there is nothing to lose and proportionality has not been considered You have until the 29th of May to register your appeal so dont worry we will help.

draft something and post here and we will help tidy things up


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cp8759
post Fri, 10 May 2019 - 18:15
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 9 May 2019 - 14:59) *
You might as well appeal to the adjudicator, there is nothing to lose and proportionality has not been considered You have until the 29th of May to register your appeal so dont worry we will help.

draft something and post here and we will help tidy things up

+1, they have committed a procedural impropriety by asserting that the 10 minute period does not apply to contravention code 12. The grace period is what Parliament says it is and the council doesn't get to decide when it does or doesn't apply.


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