[NIP Wizard] mip19lot, Caught by Average Speed Camera Options

[mip19lot]

NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - 11/11/2022
Date of the NIP: - 14/11/2022
Date you received the NIP: - 17/11/2022
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - At A338 Cooper Dean to Blackwater
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First class
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - None
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - At 02:29 on the morning of the 11/11/2022 I was clocked doing 65mph on a 50mph dual carriageway. I remember that the road was pitch black and the weather wasn’t good. It might have been raining.
I happened to travel on the same road a few evenings later and I paid special attention when approaching the site of the cameras. I observed that the Terminal sign wasn’t lit, nor did it have reflective material on the sign. It was pitch black again, so I assumed the sign wasn’t lit because it wasn’t within 183 metres of a street light.
I have once again travelled on this section of road, but during daylight hours this time and I observed that in close proximity to the cameras, there were multiple street lights that were clearly switched off during the hours of darkness.
I also observed that the 40mph Terminal sign on this dual carriageway were not lit, and that there were several signs on this carriageway that were not compliant.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

• The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.
  
  You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 21:17:59 +0000

This post has been edited by mip19lot: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 - 22:07

[Advertisement]

[southpaw82]

Additional questions.

[mip19lot]

Additional questions?

[Rallyman72]

Additional questions in the NIP wizard. If you don't answer them we can't help.

[mip19lot]

I filled out the Wizard completely. I even wrote a detailed description as to what happened and offered additional observations. Where are they?

[The Rookie]

Missed because you didn’t answer the additional questions……

Your choice, right now we can’t help you.

[Jlc]

It's in the OP:

At 02:29 on the morning of the 11/11/2022 I was clocked doing 65mph on a 50mph dual carriageway. I remember that the road was pitch black and the weather wasn’t good. It might have been raining.
I happened to travel on the same road a few evenings later and I paid special attention when approaching the site of the cameras. I observed that the Terminal sign wasn’t lit, nor did it have reflective material on the sign. It was pitch black again, so I assumed the sign wasn’t lit because it wasn’t within 183 metres of a street light.
I have once again travelled on this section of road, but during daylight hours this time and I observed that in close proximity to the cameras, there were multiple street lights that were clearly switched off during the hours of darkness.
I also observed that the 40mph Terminal sign on this dual carriageway were not lit, and that there were several signs on this carriageway that were not compliant.

[The Rookie]

Edited at 22:07 after the posts made....

So a sign that didn't need to be lit wasn't lit? Not going to help I think.

As for non reflective, I very much doubt they went to a special effort to make a non compliant sign.

That speed will qualify for a Fixed penalty, had you been going to court (due to speed or facing a totting ban) it may have been worth contesting, otherwise I fear it will be an expensive lesson on 'adequately conveyed'.

[mip19lot]

Rookie
So a sign that didn't need to be lit wasn't lit? Not going to help I think.

Can you please enlighten me as to why the sign doesn’t need to be lit? According to the TSRGD 2002, Schedule 17 Illumination of signs, paragraph 10 it is a requirement.

Have the rules changed recently?

[The Rookie]

As for TSRGD you do of course need to use 2016 and Schedule 10

2. Where the sign is a terminal sign and is erected on a trunk or principal road within 50 metres of any lamp lit by electricity that has been placed there in order to provide illumination to users of the road, the illumination requirements for the sign are—

(a)where the lamp is illuminated throughout the hours of darkness, the sign must be illuminated by internal or external lighting for so long as the lamp is illuminated and may also be reflectorised; or
(b)where the lamp is not illuminated throughout the hours of darkness–—
(i)the sign must be illuminated by internal or external lighting for so long as the lamp is illuminated and must also be reflectorised; or
(ii)the sign must be illuminated throughout the hours of darkness by internal or external lighting and may also be reflectorised.

(My Bold) You state the lamp wasn't lit by electricity, ergo, no requirement for the sign to be lit?


However if you insist it was streetlighting then an absence of signage is not then a defence. (RTRA S85 para 4)

Where no such system of street or carriageway lighting as is mentioned in section 82(1) is provided on a road, but a limit of speed is to be observed on the road, a person shall not be convicted of driving a motor vehicle on the road at a speed exceeding the limit unless the limit is indicated by means of such traffic signs as are mentioned in subsection (1) or subsection (2) above.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 - 15:46

[Rallyman72]

Rookie
So a sign that didn't need to be lit wasn't lit? Not going to help I think.

Can you please enlighten me as to why the sign doesn’t need to be lit? According to the TSRGD 2002, Schedule 17 Illumination of signs, paragraph 10 it is a requirement.

Have the rules changed recently?

TSRGD 2016 with amendments is what you need. Section 8 deals with illumination of upright signs. Schedule 10 deals with requirements for speed limit terminal signs and where repeaters may or may not be used.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/contents/made

I'd be very surprised if the sign wasn't reflective for the same reason The Rookie has quoted, that is where street lights are not lit throughout the period of darkness the sign must be reflectorised. If there are no streetlights then the terminal sign must be reflectorised.

EDIT - oops, I see The Rookie has beaten me to it!

This post has been edited by Rallyman72: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 - 14:37

[mip19lot]

Rookie

I am not being facetious when I ask, how else can a system of street lighting be illuminated other than by electricity? gas light?, chemical reaction?
Solar panels and battery powered are still using electricity.

The street lighting was/is present on this road and I can only assume that they are (designed to be) illuminated by electricity provided by the national grid. The council on this occasion chose to switch them off.

Rallyman72

I am referring to the Terminal sign, but I will look at 2016 with amendments as you suggest, so thank you.

[Rallyman72]

Rookie

I am not being facetious when I ask, how else can a system of street lighting be illuminated other than by electricity? gas light?, chemical reaction?
Solar panels and battery powered are still using electricity.

The street lighting was/is present on this road and I can only assume that they are (designed to be) illuminated by electricity provided by the national grid. The council on this occasion chose to switch them off.

Rallyman72

I am referring to the Terminal sign, but I will look at 2016 with amendments as you suggest, so thank you.

What do these 'multiple street lights' that are close to the cameras look like?

Are they like this?



If so they are an infra-red array to illuminate the car numberplate for the speed camera. Being infra-red the light is not visible to the naked eye of course.

[666]

Rookie

I am not being facetious when I ask, how else can a system of street lighting be illuminated other than by electricity? gas light?, chemical reaction?
Solar panels and battery powered are still using electricity.

The street lighting was/is present on this road and I can only assume that they are (designed to be) illuminated by electricity provided by the national grid. The council on this occasion chose to switch them off.

Rallyman72

I am referring to the Terminal sign, but I will look at 2016 with amendments as you suggest, so thank you.

What do these 'multiple street lights' that are close to the cameras look like?

Are they like this?



If so they are an infra-red array to illuminate the car numberplate for the speed camera. Being infra-red the light is not visible to the naked eye of course.

What sort of speed camera needs that?

[mip19lot]

Rallyman72
What do these 'multiple street lights' that are close to the cameras look like?

When I say multiple street lights, I just mean normal street lighting, but the spacing appears closer than you normally find at the side of the road and they looked quite new to me.

There may be some like your photo, but I didn’t notice any.

[Ahelpinggand]

666

They are auxiliary IR lighting for vector and similar AVG speed systems as Rookie insinuated above

[The Rookie]

But you said they were switched off, therefor they weren’t being ‘illuminated by electricity’, therefor the sign didn't need to be illuminated. 'Could/can be illuminated by electricty isn't what it says. A simple example is the road works are to install the street lighting, so when it starts there is no street lighting mechanism at all, after a while there are stanchions but no lighting, later wiring etc, but until they are actually 'illuminated by electricity' TSRGD doesn't need the signs to be illuminated.

Had they been on and illuminated the sign would do.

I’m not sure what’s hard to understand about that?

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 - 07:20

[BertB]

Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - At A338 Cooper Dean to Blackwater

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong section, but I can't see any streetlights on the A338 between Cooper Dean & Blackwater.

I can see average speed cameras though, and a few 50mph signs.

https://goo.gl/maps/4wdJvA9hMMg758sV7

[mip19lot]

But you said they were switched off, therefor they weren’t being ‘illuminated by electricity’, therefor the sign didn't need to be illuminated. 'Could/can be illuminated by electricty isn't what it says. A simple example is the road works are to install the street lighting, so when it starts there is no street lighting mechanism at all, after a while there are stanchions but no lighting, later wiring etc, but until they are actually 'illuminated by electricity' TSRGD doesn't need the signs to be illuminated.

Had they been on and illuminated the sign would do.

I’m not sure what’s hard to understand about that?

I do not follow your logic whatsoever. Illuminated by electricity is the means by which it is illuminated. Just switching them off doesn’t change that!!.
The regulations state that the lamps should be illuminated during the hours of darkness. This council along with many other councils are switching them off after midnight in order to save money. Do they have the authority to do that?
Irrespective of whether they were switched on or off, this sign doesn’t have it’s own light, so how could it be illuminated if the lights were switched on?

Your simple example is way off the mark. Obviously they are not a functioning system until they are fully implemented.

Had they been on and illuminated the sign would do ?? The regulations state the sign should have its own independent illumination.

Anyway, I’ve decided not to contest this.

Thanks for your input.

[DWMB2]

The regulations state that the lamps should be illuminated during the hours of darkness

The part quoted earlier in the thread suggests otherwise:

(b)where the lamp is not illuminated throughout the hours of darkness–—
(i)the sign must be illuminated by internal or external lighting for so long as the lamp is illuminated and must also be reflectorised; or
(ii)the sign must be illuminated throughout the hours of darkness by internal or external lighting and may also be reflectorised.

"For so long as the lamp is illuminated" seems to be the key distinction here... The sign only needs to be lit when the street lamps are.