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UKPC SCS Letter Before Action - Parking In My Own Space, Help requested by parking space owner
Liz2000
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 22:59
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Hi All,

Please forgive me if this is stuff that has been covered elsewhere, but I promise I have spent a few hours reading this forum , and others, before posting!

This is the situation as concisely as I can manage:-

Problem: UKPC sent me multiple invoices (all a few years ago) for in their words: “parking in a Resident Permit Holder Parking Space without clearly displaying a valid permit”. The said parking space is owned by me, within a shared residents’ car park. My lease doesn’t mention parking permits, so while there have been various schemes introduced - with no consistency - while I have lived here, and I do have a permit, my view has always been that my ownership of my space gives me the right to park there as I see fit, without the need to display a permit (clearly or otherwise). I have just read the judgement in Link Parking vs Parkinson which seems to take the same view in that particular case. I haven’t had any legal advice myself as yet.

Legal Letter: After various letters from UKPC on their various letterheads over the years, followed by long periods of silence, I have now received a Letter Before Action from SCS Law for the total sum including their penalties, the total of which is rather large – with costs, this would be in four figures. They mention Parking Eye vs Beavis in defence of their charges, although in my case this is residential property and not commercial as in Beavis.
Action: I would dearly love to defeat these legalised gangsters, but while I’m happy to argue with them and their solicitors in writing, the idea of court is daunting – I have zero experience, like most people I guess. I am torn between wanting to defend this on principle, but not wanting to be intimidated in court by UKPC and their lawyers due to my lack of experience.

First Move: In the first place I need to reply to the LBA, and I have a few questions on a suitable response:-
• I have to meet the deadline for my response, but how much detail of my defence and arguments should be contained in my reply? Would I be able to add more points in a statement if I receive court papers later? I say this because I am intending to try to gather more information about the operation of the parking scheme from our managing agents if possible.
• Should I ask SCS for any specific documents at this stage, and are they obliged to send them to me? There is a space to ask for documents but not sure what I should be asking for other than a copy of their contract to be onsite. Am I obliged to supply them with anything they request (e.g. a copy of my lease) at this stage?
• Should I mention a counter-claim (e.g. for use of my details/ my costs/ trespass) at this point in time, or is that premature?
• Should this reply be sent by regular post (their letter to me was not sent by recorded post so I would assume this is acceptable)?

Thanks for reading, and all advice appreciated!
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post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 22:59
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ostell
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 07:53
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First of all have a read of this article. Might give you some hope.

You are correct in that Beavis does not apply in your case as there is no commercial justification for a turnover of vehicles and the charge is therefore a penalty.

What does you lease say about parking? Have you sent a copy of the relevant part of your lease to UKPC and there solicitors? Could you post up a NTK that you have received, suitably redacted, for others to look at. Do they know who was driving (yes or no) or is all communication with the keeper?

You could counterclaim for a breach of the DPA in that they trespassed on your land and applied to the DVLA for your personal detail. Since there are multiple breaches then it could be a considerable sum. The first time the obtained your data then fair enough but then knowing you were a resident then a breach. You counterclaim when you send in your defence.

Costs are costs and are claimed anyway after the hearing but this is small claims court and limited.

Since you have a LBA you can ask them for everything that they intend to use in court. Copies of all the NTKs they have issued, copy of the contract with the landholder (this would be difficult as you are the landholder). Make this request at the same time as you provide them with a copy of your lease showing your demised property and parking conditions. Your defence will be provided to the court a month after the initial court forms are received but providing details of the lease etc first may make them think about it. You could mention that counterclaim for breach of DPA. About £700 perhaps?

Have a look round this forum, searching for residential cases. Your case is basically you do not need another contract for parking with a third party as you lease already provides for parking. Your lease is superior (there's a proper legal word for that) to any alleged contract with third party strangers to the lease.

Can the MA not get the charges cancelled?

Small claims court is not like the court you see on TV. It''s a room with 3 desks. The judge has the desk that is higher than the others. No wigs etc. Not really frightening.

Letters are sent first class using free proof of posting avaiable from any post office. It is assumed delivered 2 working days later. email sent and copied to another address as a check that it was sent.

This post has been edited by ostell: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 08:04
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Dave65
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 10:22
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One of SRM`s replies.

SRM leaseholder car parking
No useless, unneeded 'permits' yet? They will impose on you as well unless you stand up to them.

For the way to fight back - because there is NO APPEAL - read these threads:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5588292

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5015782

and the Roger Davey v UKPC case:

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum...ass-**SUCCESS**

I feel very sorry for anyone living in a flat now. It seems Managing Agents are believing the crap spouted by the ex-clamper brigade:

http://www.linkparking.co.uk/Managing_Agents.html

Write to your Managing Agent complaining, telling them you have not agreed to this and you own your spaces and will NOT accept a 'permit scheme' not any terms imposed by a third party firm of ex-clmapers, so notorious for suing tenants and residents of properties like yours that you can only conclude that the Managing Agents have not even Googled Link, carried out no due diligence whatsoever and have sleepwalked into a disaster.
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thevaliant
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 10:51
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I think you've already got the basic gist of your defence.

It's your space, presumably marked out in the lease (yes?) and no mention of permits in that lease.

You should reply to the LBA.
You should:
1. Copy the relevant sections of your lease showing unrestricted access.
2. Ask what right they have to be operating on your land.
3. Point out that they are not a party to the lease and cannot unilaterally introduce terms to the lease to which they are a stranger. Nor can they contract with you for something you already have (rights to park).

People will also say, "Don't out the driver" as a general rule, but I must admit in these specific cases I'd probably not care either way. Sometimes in residential leases, attacking things like signage and driver-keeper liability might undermine your basic defence. This is YOUR land, that you have paid for. No third party can come in and demand payment for your land, and NO party in the lease can just unilaterally alter it. Attacking signage and keeper liability might lead a judge to think "So you accept there would be a liability but for the poor signs then?"

Copy in your reply to both the freeholder and the managing agent (if you have one/they aren't the same). You may also ask the freeholder/MA what they are going to do about this.

If either come back and point to a 'Reasonable regulations' clause, then simply counter with "No reasonable regulation would require me to pay to a third party a huge sum of money for land I've already paid for.", plus EVEN if it is reasonable, then you've breached the lease. Ask the freeholder to crack on with their remedy which is FORFEITURE. It certainly isn't paying an unknown third party a sack of cash.

Parking in your own leased space - LAND LAW. LAND LAW. LAND LAW. Land law all the way. These clowns don't know contract law, they certainly haven't even looked at the Law of Property Act 1925.


On final point - the only 'weakness' in your defence is not replying sooner. I don't think it's fatal to your case, but if a claim does materialise you may not get costs because you haven't replied to this sooner.
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Eljayjay
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 11:39
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Depending on what the letter before action actually says, you could try a reply along the following lines. You will need to restore the indenting...


Thank you for your letter of claim dated xx January 2018.

As you must surely know, in accordance with sub-paragraph 3.1© of the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims, “The Letter of Claim should… enclose a copy of the Information Sheet and the Reply Form at Annex 1 to this Protocol”. You have, however, failed to meet this requirement. You have also failed to provide the following information as required by sub-paragraphs 3.1(a)(ii), 3.1(a)(iii) and 3.1(a)(iv) of the Protocol:-

(ii) whether interest or other charges are continuing;

(iii) where the debt arises from an oral agreement, who made the agreement, what was agreed (including, as far as possible, what words were used) and when and where it was agreed; and

(iv) where the debt arises from a written agreement, the date of the agreement, the parties to it and the fact that a copy of the written agreement can be requested from the creditor.

In addition to providing this missing information, I shall be grateful if you will explain your failure to meet the your obligations under the Protocol.

To demonstrate my own willingness to meet the aims of the Protocol, if you had sent me the reply form, I would have provided the following information on it:-

BOX D

I dispute the debt.

I dispute the debt because I do not understand your client’s position and, to the best of my knowledge and belief, (a) I have never into a contract with the creditor and (b) the creditor has no standing in relation to the land on which the vehicle was parked.


BOX I

I need more documents and information.

I need a copy of:-

the parking agreement between the creditor and the owner or occupier of the land purporting to grant the right to the creditor to charge for parking;

the site plan provided by the creditor to its accredited trade association;

a copy of the written contract for the alleged debt;

the accredited trade association’s code of practice to which the creditor claims to adhere;

if there is a lease governing parking on the land, a copy of the lease;

if a lease exists and any rules or regulations have been made in accordance with its provisions to allow your client to operate a parking scheme on the land, I require (a) a copy of those rules or regulations duly signed, etc. by the person(s) who made them plus (b) a note the specific provisions in the lease for those rules or regulations to have been made; and

if a lease exists and it granted individual rights to park on the land to a particular person (e.g. the lessee), a note of the name and address of that person and a copy of the instrument which either transferred those individual rights from that person to the creditor or permitted them to be shared by that person and the creditor.

I would remind you that, in accordance with sub-paragraph 5.1 of the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims:-

“Early disclosure of documents and relevant information can help to clarify or resolve any issues in dispute. Where any aspect of the debt is disputed (including the amount, interest, charges, time for payment, or the creditor’s compliance with relevant statutes and regulations), the parties should exchange information and disclose documents sufficient to enable them to understand each other’s position”.

As mentioned previously, I do not understand your client’s position which is why I require the documents and information mentioned above.

I would also remind you that, in accordance with sub-paragraph 5.2 of the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims:-

“If the debtor requests a document or information, the creditor must –

(a) provide the document or information; or

(b) explain why the documents or information is unavailable, within 30 days of receipt of the request.”

I have great respect for the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims and, particularly, its aims as expressed in its paragraph 2. Consequently, if you supply me with the documents or information requested above, if I am persuaded that I should reconsider my position, I shall very gladly do so.

This post has been edited by Eljayjay: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 11:43
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 12:31
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I would add

If you fail to p4ovode these documents, and proceed to a claim, I will immediately apply for anstay, at your clients expense, until you do comply. I will also notify the SRA of your inability to follow this most basic requirement and remind you that your first duty is to the courts, not your client.
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ManxRed
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 12:40
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Worth pointing out to the DVLA that they are operating a parking scheme on land that they do not have a contract to operate on. Unless you contracted with them in your sleep!


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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Liz2000
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 14:43
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Thank you all - there are some really good suggestions here and links that I had not found before.

Yes, my lease has details of this specific parking space, including a diagram. I purchased the car park space separately from my flat (later) and it mentions being linked to my property. I will find both car park and property leases and read again in detail. For this forum I will scan the parts of these and the LBA that don't contain details specific to me.

I also intend to write to the managing agents. Their office referred me back to UKPC when I complained about these invoices to them in the past, but I will appeal to them again, as this is definitely not within the spirit of any scheme set up on the estate, which should be for the benefit of residents like myself.

I do take on board that I could have done all this sooner, but I honestly thought, based on others experiences and my own, that they would not have taken things this far. I'm guessing the Beavis case, rightly or wrongly, spurred them into believing their charges are now justified and enforceable.

Cheers,
Liz2000
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ostell
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 14:46
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They know Beavis doesn't make the charges enforceable in your instance but it sounds a good threat to make.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 15:34
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TELL the ma that their agent is breaching the terms of your lease, by trespassing on your land and interfering with your peaceful enjoyment of same.
They MUST order their agent to cease and desist. They remain fully liable for the breach of lease caused by their agent, and should they fail to bring their agent to heel in this matter, then when you seek an injunction banning their agent fromyiur land, plus damages for aggravated breach of lease and trespass, you will enjoin the MA in the action and hold them jointly liable.
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Eljayjay
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 16:55
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When posting what your lease says, obviously include anything about parking, but also remember to include anything dealing with how the lease can be amended and by whom plus anything about quiet enjoyment of the property.

If/when you receive any documentation from the solicitors, regard it with scepticism. For example, if someone has signed the parking agreement as, say, a director of the freeholder, check on the Companies House website - the gov.uk version - that he/she is a director of the freeholder.
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Redivi
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 17:07
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Also check with the Land Registry that the company actually is the freeholder
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cabbyman
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 20:55
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 16:55) *
When posting what your lease says, obviously include anything about parking, but also remember to include anything dealing with how the lease can be amended and by whom plus anything about quiet enjoyment of the property.

If/when you receive any documentation from the solicitors, regard it with scepticism. For example, if someone has signed the parking agreement as, say, a director of the freeholder, check on the Companies House website - the gov.uk version - that he/she is a director of the freeholder.


It is unlikely that there will be anything about amendment. A lease cannot be amended except by agreement of both parties, evidenced in the same form as the original document. Quiet enjoyment of the property is an equitable right implied at common law and doesn't necessarily need to be an express provision. It is often included in leases to avoid doubt.

This post has been edited by cabbyman: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 20:56


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Eljayjay
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 12:31
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I did not mean anything which simply reads along the lines of "This lease can be amended by...". Liz2000 also needs to look out for clauses within the lease which allow other parties (i.e. usually the freeholder, but perhaps a residents' management company or even managing agents) to make rules and regulations over and above those actually contained in the lease.

As we all know, residential parking cases are often very winnable, but it is important that those defending claims are fully conversant with what their leases say and that includes what their leases have to say about quiet enjoyment.

Liz2000 - as you have seen, there are lots of people trying to assist you, but it would be easier if you were to post the relevant contents of your lease and the letter before claim.
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Liz2000
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 18:19
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Thanks to all; your comments much appreciated - I've been at work but I'm on it guys; my lease bundle is in front of me and it's enormous, probably 100+ pages. I'm trying to plough through the pages of sometimes tortuous phrasing to find what may be relevant. Will post up asap as this will be crucial I know.

cheers
Liz2000
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Liz2000
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 15:08
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Update: I have been working on this, but unable to remove my info from any files scanned or saved, no matter which format I use. Will try again later.
If I cannot get this sorted, I will re-type into post.

-Liz2000
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 11:52
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Use pieces of paper to cover up the identifying info.
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Liz2000
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 00:21
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Have added SCS letter - lease extracts tomorrow







-Liz2000

This post has been edited by Liz2000: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 14:09
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 10:25
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Pretty clear that does not meet the new PAP
So the long form response is in order, from MSE, telling them how terrible their LBA is.

TBH, the SCS law response is quick and easy. What you must concentrate on getting done is the lease - if you can, in your response, include your OWN document you make them look silly if they then proceed - and by silly, I mean unreasonable.

PLEASE do not use forum space to upload more documents. Instead use the READ FIRST sticky (good name, yes? wink.gif) and use something like tinypic.

This post has been edited by nosferatu1001: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 10:27
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Liz2000
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 14:25
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Thank you - now edited to URL's via Tinypic - it was only temporary since it was so late last night and I was 9/10 asleep; sorry to cause any dismay! blush.gif Are those OK now?

I will look for that long form response on MSE and update re lease tonight (and definitely not in attachment...).

Have also written to the MA in the meantime.

-Liz2000
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