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PNC with Wrong Video: Code 46 stopped where prohibited (red route)
Philmann
post Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 18:26
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Dear Forum Members,

I received a PCN from TFL which is indicating a “Code 46 stopped where prohibited (red route)”. I attach copies of the video and the PCN that the Authority issued for your kind attention.

I shall be very grateful if you could please point out any issues that you could think are of “unjust enrichment” intentions by TFL.

The followings are few points that I picked and may have some legal comportment in order to avoid the payment of the penalty charge. If you could see anything in them or any other points please let me know.

The video, which is EA’s main witness material, can be viewed by clicking here or clicking the uploaded file. The video is completely unrelated, the car and the location in the video have no relevance whatsoever to what is stated in the PCN. Therefore, the Authority has failed to prove the alleged contravention.

The two photographs in the PNC, one shows me checking out the signboard alongside my motorbike and the other one shows me riding/pushing on my motorbike away. Most probably I stopped there very momentarily due to an emergency (flat tires or running out of petrol) or to check the sign due to the angle of the sign and the sun I was not able to clearly read the sign. Note, the parking bay in the PNC photograph is a single red line with a sign ‘No stopping Mon-Sat 7am – 7pm Except 10am to 4pm Loading'.

PNC
TFL letter
Video

This post has been edited by Philmann: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 15:08
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post Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 18:26
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Incandescent
post Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 19:02
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Well so far they haven't proved the allegation, but they only have to prove this at an adjudication, when the video must show you and your scooter committing the contravention. Clearly they have made a mistake with the video at this stage, but whilst it doesn't help their case if you get to adjudication, I suspect an adjudicator will forgive them on the basis that mistakes are made. You now need to reply and point out their video is not of you nor anywhere near the location they claim on the PCN, and ask for the correct one, and for them to put the case on hold until they correct their error. The photos on the PCN will be from the video, so they obviously have it.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 19:03
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DastardlyDick
post Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 23:18
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Concur with Incandescent, you must get the correct video.
At the moment, you look bang to rights on the contravention, and running out of fuel is not usually classed as a breakdown/emergency.

This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 01:06
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Neil B
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 00:19
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I don't.

Since this is parking regs and you have a legal entitlement to the video evidence, either as the regs prescribe or via any other
facility they make available, then they must disclose it.

I think you're on a winner.

Wait for others.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 07:46
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 01:19) *
I don't.

Since this is parking regs and you have a legal entitlement to the video evidence, either as the regs prescribe or via any other
facility they make available, then they must disclose it.

I think you're on a winner.

Wait for others.


+1 make representations re the contravention, they are pretty common at that place, (signage is crap from memory) but make no mention of the video. Let them file with the tribunal if they correct it and the adjudicator accepts that you are no worse of but at appeal you can claim the statutory ground of PI in that the council failed to supply the video as required by regs

post a draft here for review before sending


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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 08:28
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This is what the Appeals Regs say (my bold):-

(5) The recipient of a penalty charge notice served by virtue of regulation 10(1)(a) of the General Regulations may, by notice in writing to the enforcement authority, request it—

(a)to make available at one of its offices specified by him, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by him or by his representative, the record of the contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed; or

(b)to provide him, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the contravention.

So if TfL don't have to send a video they have not breached any legislative requirement. We know that TfL have not been offering the opportunity for PCN recipients to view the video as per (a) above so we have a bit of a muddle in terms of due process which may give us leverage.

Has the OP suffered prejudice in terms of enforcement time-scales? Not if TfL can rectify the position with the proper video and allow longer for an appeal IMO.

I think the OP needs to get his story straight --anything which caused him to push his bike home will be firmly remembered.

As others, the OP is bang to rights unless the stop was for less than a minute or that he was prevented from proceeding by a fault to the bike (outside his control). Ergo he needs the correct video.

Mick
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 08:52
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i think its fair to say if in the front part of the bay, that the sign is not visible from the carriageway

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5567295,-...3312!8i6656


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cp8759
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 10:44
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The TFL covering letter that came with the video says "If you have any questions, you can contact us on...", an adjudicator might ask why the OP didn't query the video at the earliest available opportunity.


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DancingDad
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 11:34
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My first impression from the photos is a delivery rider chancing their arm and stopping to make a delivery.... and may well be a totally wrong impression.
But no sign of a flat tyre and I'm sure you would remember running out of fuel or a breakdown.
That sort of hazy story with no evidence will put you on the back foot with an adjudicator anyway.

I don't see that the wrong video is an automatic win.
It depends on what happens next.
Scenario 1, you challenge simply stating that the video does not establish the contravention, TFL are sloppy, say it does and the same video ends up at adjudication, you win.
Scenario 2, as above but TFL check the video, write back saying sorry, we sent wrong video, here is the right one, we will give another 14 days to pay or challenge.... not prescribed within legislation but an adjudicator may accept you were treated fairly.
Scenario 3. TFL check, reject, you end up at adjudication with the right video on display, adjudicator may accept a PI as you were treated unfairly.
Probably other options can happen but all against a couple of photos on the PCN that suggest bang to rights.


I would not like to challenge only on the wrong video, much prefer to use the signs (if were turned) breakdown (if occurred with evidence) and as minimum, BTW you sent the wrong video which has disadvantage me.
But TBH would be back to them saying can I have the right video... they may have lost it and that would be a win.
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 12:35
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I would ask to see the video as per:-

(a) to make available at one of its offices specified by him, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by him or by his representative, the record of the contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed;

Let's see what the current position is with TfL.

Mick
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DancingDad
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 13:37
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 13:35) *
.........Let's see what the current position is with TfL.

Mick


IIRC they now have an office available though I confess cannot remember where.
Miller panel hearing will be applied if an office available.
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Umtwebby
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 13:42
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QUOTE (Philmann @ Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 19:26) *
The video, which is EA’s main witness material, can be viewed by clicking here or clicking the uploaded file. The video is completely unrelated, the car and the location in the video have no relevance whatsoever to what is stated in the PCN. Therefore, the Authority has failed to prove the alleged contravention.


The provision of the errant video is a data breach by the authority under GDPR.

It is likely that your private information has also been provided to someone else and is also therefore a data breach.

Don't know whether that would be significant or would help.
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cp8759
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 13:55
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Philmann could ask the council to confirm whether the video for his case has gone to anyone else, and if it has he could complaint to the Information Commissioner, but that would have no bearing on the PCN.


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Philmann
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 13:58
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Incandescent, I understand your point they may or may not have made a mistake with the video, It's not my job to straighten up their sloppy job. I requested a video evidence and they sent me a video evidence that has no relevance to the PNC in question. I may have a good ground for an appeal on multiple circumstances and I'm not sure initially pointing out their mistake is to my advantage or the right way to go about.

DastardlyDick, Well I already asked for an evidence and they sent me the video evidence in which that doesn't show me committing the contravention in question. After the appeal If they have made a mistake with the video evidence, they should tell the adjudicator they made a mistake.

Neil B, Indeed that also is my line of thinking based on the evidence video they sent me there was no contravention committed by me to warrant for the PNC.

PASTMYBEST, Good point agree with your reasoning there. Indeed the sign is not visible from the carriageway I had to briefly stop to read the signs and the fact is all the still photographs show me exactly doing that. Having said that I'm not sure though what exactly my next course of action should be, need some help with the drafting...

Mad Mick V, Thank you for pointing out the general regulations for clarification. Due to nature my job working as a delivery driver I'm on the road daily 12 hours, 7 days a week. Recently in the last couple of months, I had multiple breakdowns including flat tires, I would not knowingly stop or park on a prohibited bays unless an emergency. So that is the reason I wasn't sure what exactly happened that day and I was keen to find out from the video evidence as the still photographs don't show me conclusively commiting a contravention.

cp8759, I see what you mean my answer would have been I had no questions had I not given away my PCN number and Registration Number here in this forum where the authority most probably check this forum for evidence in their defense. It was a mistake on my part in disclosing such pieces of information that inevitably restricts my defense. : B


DancingDad, Thank for break it down in that way. I will go with Scenario 1 and if the case progress to Scenario 2 or 3 I will update you with the results.

















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cp8759
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 14:06
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QUOTE (Philmann @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 14:58) *
cp8759, I see what you mean my answer would have been I had no questions had I not given away my PCN number and Registration Number here in this forum where the authority most probably check this forum for evidence in their defense. It was a mistake on my part in disclosing such pieces of information that inevitably restricts my defense. : B

I don't believe councils routinely look on here, but I think you've missed the point. You got a DVD with the wrong video, and it's obvious you had no questions as you didn't contact them. The problem is, having realised it's the wrong video, why didn't you have any questions? Surely as a reasonable person, the first thing you'd do is call them up and say "oi, you've sent me the wrong video, send me the right one". This remains true regardless of whether the council ever become aware of this thread.


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Philmann
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 14:13
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QUOTE (Umtwebby @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 14:42) *
QUOTE (Philmann @ Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 19:26) *
The video, which is EA’s main witness material, can be viewed by clicking here or clicking the uploaded file. The video is completely unrelated, the car and the location in the video have no relevance whatsoever to what is stated in the PCN. Therefore, the Authority has failed to prove the alleged contravention.


The provision of the errant video is a data breach by the authority under GDPR.

It is likely that your private information has also been provided to someone else and is also, therefore, a data breach.

Don't know whether that would be significant or would help.


Thank you for bringing it up that here. Indeed that is a significant matter in its own right.

Let's say the authority sent my private information to someone else what will the conscience be for them under GDPR data breach law? And how would I know if they did or not sent my private information to someone else? Is it possible for them not to admit the data breach by lying?
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cp8759
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 14:18
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QUOTE (Philmann @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 15:13) *
Let's say the authority sent my private information to someone else what will the conscience be for them under GDPR data breach law? And how would I know if they did or not sent my private information to someone else? Is it possible for them not to admit the data breach by lying?

They're not going to lie, the person who would have to do the lying would have no personal interest in supplying false information but depending on the circumstances may well commit a criminal offence in doing so.


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Philmann
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 15:31
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 15:06) *
QUOTE (Philmann @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 14:58) *
cp8759, I see what you mean my answer would have been I had no questions had I not given away my PCN number and Registration Number here in this forum where the authority most probably check this forum for evidence in their defense. It was a mistake on my part in disclosing such pieces of information that inevitably restricts my defense. : B

I don't believe councils routinely look on here, but I think you've missed the point. You got a DVD with the wrong video, and it's obvious you had no questions as you didn't contact them. The problem is, having realised it's the wrong video, why didn't you have any questions? Surely as a reasonable person, the first thing you'd do is call them up and say "oi, you've sent me the wrong video, send me the right one". This remains true regardless of whether the council ever become aware of this thread.


My point is pretty much the same with DancindDad Scenarios, I simply challenge stating that the video does not establish the contravention, and if TFL says it does and the same video ends up at adjudication, I win. But TFL check the video, write back saying sorry, we sent the wrong video, here is the right one, we will give another 14 days to pay or challenge, then I go for my next option whether to challenge or not depending on the video and other factors.

As for for the original documents I have now edited them so any private information that can identify me has been masked.

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Philmann
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 15:43
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 15:18) *
QUOTE (Philmann @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 15:13) *
Let's say the authority sent my private information to someone else what will the conscience be for them under GDPR data breach law? And how would I know if they did or not sent my private information to someone else? Is it possible for them not to admit the data breach by lying?

They're not going to lie, the person who would have to do the lying would have no personal interest in supplying false information but depending on the circumstances may well commit a criminal offence in doing so.


They have been caught cheating, lying, bending the rules many times in the past, they have caused enough pain and misery to so many people already so I'm definitely very much looking into stopping them from inflicting more misery and pain to me...

Any advice will be greatly appreciated against this unjust enrichment intentions by TFL.

Thanks
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DancingDad
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 16:00
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QUOTE (Philmann @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 16:43) *
........Any advice will be greatly appreciated against this unjust enrichment intentions by TFL.

Thanks

What unjust enrichment ?
They have photos, I assume of you, stopped in a red route bay when not supposed to.
I assume from that they have a video even if they do seem to have mislaid it at the moment.

This is all they need to be able to serve a PCN and if not challenged, enforce it.
You may believe it is unfair and TBH, I think many councils take the pee and grasp every penny they can but it is what the law allows.

You need to think on defending it without using legal terms that do not apply.
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