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School entrance with DYL
Zwypl
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 00:32
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My car was parked on a school entrance at the permitted times, see sign i.e. Saturday.

See google map link:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Margare...33;4d-0.0713809

There also is a double yellow line which appears to be a contradiction to the sign. I had good reason to believe their sign that: parking is permitted at that time.

I was given this PCN and pic from EA's website:-





What can you help me please?

This post has been edited by Zwypl: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 00:34
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post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 00:32
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makara
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 01:08
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Back of PCN?
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DancingDad
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 01:59
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Bleah
One where signs follow exact stipulations but need also to follow guidance.
While generally DYLs need no signs and no reason why the school zigzags and DYLs cannot coexist, there is a danger that someone will read school signs and confuse
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 09:47
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2170371474

The contravention alleged in these proceedings is that this vehicle was parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours.
On the evidence before me the vehicle was parked on a double yellow line that runs through school entrance markings.
The appellant disputes liability for the charge on the ground that she parked outside of the times of the prohibition on stopping as stated on the sign restrictions at the location being unclear.
There are two restrictions in force at this spot - the prohibition on stopping on school markings as stated on the sign and a 24/7 waiting restriction as indicated by the double yellow line.
Although I infer that it is the council's case that these restrictions are mutually exclusive no submissions are made on that matter in its case summary and I accept having considered the appellant's evidence that the marking of these two restrictions at the same location leads to confusion as to what restriction is in force and I find for that reason that the contravention has not been proved.
The appeal is accordingly allowed.


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stamfordman
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 10:01
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Hackney only recently painted the DYLs there - not showing in August 2017:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5667124,-0....3312!8i6656
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 08:31
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DYLs came into force 2nd January:-

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2931697

The presence of the Google van certainly makes the two CEOs, one either side of the street, look particularly furtive.

Mick
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stamfordman
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 09:27
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Must say I can't see what's wrong with the markings - how else could the authority stop parking at all times and in addition stop the boarding/loading exemptions during school times?
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hcandersen
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 14:45
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OP, you posted:

I had good reason to believe their sign that: parking is permitted at that time.

Which was what?

Each case turns on its own facts. The quoted case is hardly compelling given that it is so heavily caveated by 'I infer that it is the council's case that these restrictions are mutually exclusive no submissions are made on that matter in its case..' Had they been, the outcome could probably have been different.

And had you parked there before when presumably SYLs were in effect no longer than the stopping restriction? If so, then you knew the diffeerence between waiting and stopping, so what's changed in your understanding of this distinction?
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Zwypl
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 15:58
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 08:31) *
DYLs came into force 2nd January:-

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2931697

The presence of the Google van certainly makes the two CEOs, one either side of the street, look particularly furtive.

Mick


That Order of that link doesn't mention DYL or "at any time".


QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 09:27) *
Must say I can't see what's wrong with the markings - how else could the authority stop parking at all times and in addition stop the boarding/loading exemptions during school times?


You may be right technically, however there is no doubt that the signs are currently misleading, they should have added that "parking" is prohibited at all times although stopping time varies..

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 14:45) *
OP, you posted:

I had good reason to believe their sign that: parking is permitted at that time.

Which was what?

Each case turns on its own facts. The quoted case is hardly compelling given that it is so heavily caveated by 'I infer that it is the council's case that these restrictions are mutually exclusive no submissions are made on that matter in its case..' Had they been, the outcome could probably have been different.

And had you parked there before when presumably SYLs were in effect no longer than the stopping restriction? If so, then you knew the diffeerence between waiting and stopping, so what's changed in your understanding of this distinction?


Reason: sign states "stopping" is permitted. Why should I think that "parking" is different?

What is the reason the EA didn't submit reps? perhaps they didn't believe in their case enough?

I didn't dream that any change on the road markings should supersede the two large prominent signs. It should have stated that parking is prohibited and not only that stopping is permitted out of the releveant times.

This post has been edited by Zwypl: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 16:03
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hcandersen
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 16:06
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You've chosen to read the sign as 'stopping is permitted other than at the following times' and argue that as stopping is a more onerous restriction than waiting that therefore waiting must be permitted.

But that's not what the sign says, it says that stopping is not permitted between A and B, it is silent on what other restrictions might apply outside this time other than stopping which is not prohibited.
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Zwypl
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 16:21
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 16:06) *
You've chosen to read the sign as 'stopping is permitted other than at the following times' and argue that as stopping is a more onerous restriction than waiting that therefore waiting must be permitted.

But that's not what the sign says, it says that stopping is not permitted between A and B, it is silent on what other restrictions might apply outside this time other than stopping which is not prohibited.


This "silence" of the sign is deafening or defining to persuade an innocent motorist that "parking" is permitted out of the "stopping" hours.

Signs are there to be helpful not misleading.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 17:46
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QUOTE (Zwypl @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 16:21) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 16:06) *
You've chosen to read the sign as 'stopping is permitted other than at the following times' and argue that as stopping is a more onerous restriction than waiting that therefore waiting must be permitted.

But that's not what the sign says, it says that stopping is not permitted between A and B, it is silent on what other restrictions might apply outside this time other than stopping which is not prohibited.


This "silence" of the sign is deafening or defining to persuade an innocent motorist that "parking" is permitted out of the "stopping" hours.

Signs are there to be helpful not misleading.

That is the only issue I can see.

The DYLs need no sign and indeed although old ones that have pole mounted, No Waiting roundel and "At Any Time" can be seen occasionally this is discouraged by regulations and guidance.
However, certainly where single yellows are concerned and times of No Stopping and No Waiting are not the same, guidance says that a local No Waiting sign should be used in conjunction with the No Stopping.
Else people are likely to confuse.
I see little different in this potential for confusion, a ruddy great big sign with times on is always likely to catch someone's eye and lead them into error.
And error easily mitigated with an additional No Waiting, At Any Time.... though I think this would need to be authorised.
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 18:07
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Turn the argument around a tad.

DYLs mean no stopping/waiting 24/7----so how do they get away with an exception plate which allows stopping or waiting (by default). Reading the sign suggests to me that I can stop outside the hours shown on the sign but that is wrong.

Usually there is a SYL which complements what's on the sign-plate--here, regardless of the sign there is a 24/7 prohibition.

Ergo if they left it up after the markings were painted we have non compliance with Reg 18 (1)© of LATOR 1996 IMO:-

© in a case where the order revokes, amends or alters the application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong positions.

Against that --is there any reason for the sign to be there anyway--do school markings have to have a sign-plate?

Mick
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DancingDad
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 18:15
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 18:07) *
.........--do school markings have to have a sign-plate?

Mick


Yes to be enforceable.
The sign makes the markings you must not stop.
Otherwise they are simply suggestive that you should not stop.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 18:22
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 18:07) *
Reading the sign suggests to me that I can stop outside the hours shown on the sign but that is wrong.



You can stop (wait) for the usual exemptions?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 18:26
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soggi
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 20:23
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 09:27) *
Must say I can't see what's wrong with the markings - how else could the authority stop parking at all times and in addition stop the boarding/loading exemptions during school times?


SYL at times the school markings are not in force would be the correct way to do it, as it is there are two different restrictions in place at the same time each with different exemptions.

QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 18:07) *
Turn the argument around a tad.

DYLs mean no stopping/waiting 24/7


DYL are a waiting restriction, you can stop, load and board.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 20:35
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QUOTE (soggi @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 20:23) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 09:27) *
Must say I can't see what's wrong with the markings - how else could the authority stop parking at all times and in addition stop the boarding/loading exemptions during school times?


SYL at times the school markings are not in force would be the correct way to do it, as it is there are two different restrictions in place at the same time each with different exemptions.



Having a single yellow with timeplates for two periods around the school times will be even more confusing especially in a CPZ.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 21:25
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We can try and rationalise this until the cows come home, but IMO the fundamentals are whether a local authority are prevented from placing DYL in addition to a stopping prohibition.

All those thinking yes, form a queue on the left, those to the contrary on the right.

I'm on the right.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 22:32
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 21:25) *
We can try and rationalise this until the cows come home, but IMO the fundamentals are whether a local authority are prevented from placing DYL in addition to a stopping prohibition.

All those thinking yes, form a queue on the left, those to the contrary on the right.

I'm on the right.


The question is not are they allowed to place DYL because the answer is yes. The question is, if they do, bearing in mind other signs at the location. can it or does it have the potential to confuse.

My personal view is, rather like DYL or SYL across DK it does not. but then I am aware of them.

An adjudicator could find either way, so the OP must decide if they want to take the bet



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hcandersen
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 22:39
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If by placing them they confuse, then as they weren't placed in any unique manner it follows that they cannot be placed.

So they can in theory but not in practice. Can't see the powers that be rewriting the 2016 regs for our or this OP's convenience.
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