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PCN - VCS in Sheffield - Soft appeal rejected
BigAlC
post Tue, 28 Apr 2015 - 11:45
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Hi all,

I've joined here from MSE in the hope some legal eagles can give me a bit of a pointer regarding the appeal to the entirely "unbias" IAS board.

Here is the link to the MSE topic, but I'll copy the latest post and add some information below;

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5228413

QUOTE
So, as for the pcn. It has been issued under a code 81. "Parked in a restricted area of a car park".

As you can see from the pictures above, there is no signage to dictate that the area is restricted, neither on the floor markings or on posts. This alone makes this ticket null and void in my opinion but obviously they thought otherwise by responding on this point saying;
QUOTE
"As per the statement made by our patrol officer, your vehicle was parked in a restricted area. Specifically, they stated, "not parked in a bay or space, parked in a service bay". The signs on site clearly state, "Park correctly and only between the lines of a single marked bay". It is not unreasonable to expect motorists to check signs in situ before leaving their vehicle.
.


I think they have caught themselves out there, as he says the patrol monkey has said one thing, and their own sign says another. Please correct me if I am wrong.

It goes on to say;
QUOTE
Your vehicle was not parked in a parking bay, and the signs on site indicate that any area that is not a parking bay may not be used for parking. Accordingly, this notice was issued correctly for a breach of the Terms and Conditions displayed on site and quoted above, and the charge will therefore stand. Whilst we appreciate what you have stated in your correspondance, we must advise you that it is the landower's decision whether or not to have lines warning motorists. As the signage in the car park is deemed as adequate, there is no need for lines warning motorists as well.

Personally, I still think this is rubbish. Again though if anyone can enlighten me that would be wonderful.

I also pulled up the charge amount and questioned its value, here is the response;

QUOTE
We note your comments in relation to the amount of our PCN charges and we can confirm that they represent a sum for liquidated and ascertained damages in respect of a breach of the "parking contract". Those charges have been calculated in advance and were clearly set out on the signage. When a motorist parks in breach of the terms and conditions of parking, a loss is incurred by us as incorrect parking prevents the efficient management of the car park. If we are unable to regulate the car park, our clients would not require our services and the company would cease to exist. It is therefore justifiable that the operator seeks to enforce its terms and conditions.


I will be sending another letter to them today, asking for a fully compliant VAT invoice to be sent to me with a breakdown of all charges applied to create the £100 charge. We shall see what they say.


So I will have a look for a template, unless someone wishes to provide something which might stand a chance of getting the PCN thrown out?

It will basically be along the same lines as my original appeal of contravention did not occur due to lack of restricted area signage and ergo lack of signage stipulating where restricted areas are and disproportional charges.

I understand that once this letter is fired off, unless I get a court order or similar I simply ignore further letters, although there is an option to deny the "collection agency" and refer them back to VCS.

Oh as a side note, I'll be getting a witness statement from one of the business owners to add ammo to my rebuttle.

Cheers for any help anyone can offer. I realise it's a mammoth first post and I've probably left loads out, but please ask any questions you need answering.

Al.
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post Tue, 28 Apr 2015 - 11:45
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BigAlC
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 07:19
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Sure enough. I've now got my letter of claim. biggrin.gif

It's the usual garbage that is seen on all the other threads, and here is my response which I've created from various sources, both here and elsewhere,

A critique would be appreciated (see attachments)
Attached Image

Attached Image


A secondary question, If I respond towards the end of the due date, does this then prevent anything being issued until I get all documents back that I have requested?

Cheers!
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 08:16
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Nothing prevents them issuing a claim
Nothing
If they pay the fee, it gets filed. Done.

Failing to follow the PAP you could argue should allow you to apply for, and get, a Stay on proceedings .The feee of £100 is then usually payable by them.
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BigAlC
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 12:17
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Thanks Nos!

I'm just doing a little more polishing on this letter in response to my LOC from BW Legal.

Going through my pack of documents since this all started (I've kept everything) there are various admissions of things from POFA to Ellliott vs Loake etc. Most interestingly though I have a couple of pictures which clearly show there is no restricted area where the vehicle was parked.

Can I / Should I refer to this "evidence" which they sent me ( I have pictures of my own to back this up ) and put a paragraph in basically saying your own "evidence" shows that the vehicle is not in a restricted area and as such you will lose at court due to your reason for issuing the invoice being invalid?

Another thing, do I need to fill out the "Reply Form" which gives me various tick boxes to select? Some say you do, and others say ignore it and just respond with the request for more information letter.

TIA.

This post has been edited by BigAlC: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 12:18
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 13:52
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Yes, point out their OWN pictures show that their claims of a "restricted area" are either a deliberate falsehood or incompetence. You suggest they refer back to their client and enquire as to which one they prefer.

You require a full explanation of how theire can be a "restricted area" when there is no such area marked, and how their client has come up with such an assertion
ALternatively, yuo will accept an apology and confirmation that they have cancelled any and all tickets and will cease processing your data.

No, you dont have to fill 0ut any form. It is entirely optional.
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BigAlC
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 14:35
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Once again, thanks.

Here is the paragraph:

QUOTE
I also refer you again back to your response letter to my complaint to the CSA dated XXxXXX in which you have given me copies of your client’s pictures of the vehicle parked in the alleged “restricted area” which they may intend to rely on in court. It is clear from these pictures that the vehicle is clearly not parked in such an area and these pictures are either a deliberate falsehood and attempt to mislead, or pure incompetence. I suggest you refer to your client and establish which one they prefer. I also require a full explanation on how there can be a “restricted area” when there is no such area marked, and how your client has come to this assertion. Please do not refer to “Parking Within a Marked Bay” as this is not the contravention code that your client has used to issue the Notice to Keeper.

Alternatively, I will accept a full apology from yourselves and your client, confirming that this ticket is cancelled, and both companies have ceased processing my data.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 14:55
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Do they give any reference numbers to the photos? Always be as specific as you can.
If we could see the photos - presumably a "restricted area" would have some form of markings, and the asbsnece of them would be prime facie proof the area cannot be rstricted in anyway. Seeing signs would be good as well.
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BigAlC
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 06:24
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:55) *
Do they give any reference numbers to the photos? Always be as specific as you can.
If we could see the photos - presumably a "restricted area" would have some form of markings, and the asbsnece of them would be prime facie proof the area cannot be rstricted in anyway. Seeing signs would be good as well.



No direct reference no. I could place annotation on them and refer to them myself.

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image


Pretty clear that there are no restrictions in place or marked otherwise.

Signage - This link is taken from another persons thread on MSE, but is one of the relevant signs. If I interpret it correctly then even the sign states that restricted areas are marked.

TIA.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 09:03
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Its a terrible pic however it suggests that the no parking in ... would be dyl, walkways etc. Dont you have your own pictures (Im not going back through 5 pages to see why)
Annotate and reference them
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BigAlC
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 09:46
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I do have my own indeed.

I'll throw a few in for good measure and reference a case I've been given the access to, to really try and nip this now.
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sensai
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 20:55
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I'm also doing battle (as RK) with VCS. The rectangular area in question has a different kind of tarmac than the rest, I can only guess that it might have been intended for an over-spill area but never marked out. A view from overhead (Google Earth) seems to confirm this.
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BigAlC
post Fri, 3 May 2019 - 11:21
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Back again.

So after the many letters bounced between me and BW Legal, they left it with a "we are referring back to our client to see how they wish to proceed" and heard nothing more from them.

Then yesterday, I got a Letter Before Claim (big scary red letters) with VCS titled paper. So it looks like BW Legal have kicked this back to VCS as BW do not want to take it to court.

I presume that I should just send exactly the same rebuttal letter to VCS with appropriate changes to dates etc and send that off? This letter tennis is very fun.
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Lyndon
post Fri, 10 May 2019 - 18:33
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My son has also had a LBC from VCS from a supposed offence in 2015. Last letter we sent to BW Legal in response to their LBC was in May 2016 and never got a response at all. I can only assume they knew it wasn't worth proceeding and the LBC wasn't pukka as I pointed out to them!

Think VCS will be getting a lot of SAR requests to deal with as well as rebuttal letters pointing out their LBC are not correctmand requesting more information.

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Redivi
post Fri, 10 May 2019 - 18:59
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We've seen a lot of threads recently where VCS has been sending Letters of Claim for cases that BWL gave up

I've just had an email from BWL that tells me that the account is now closed
I'm keeping the file safe because I fully expect VCS to come back in a year or two
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