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Think I won?, PCN late charge
PhatDragon
post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 17:20
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This is for my PE3

Prior to the enforcement dated 27/06/2019 and received 20/02/2020, I was unaware of the associated penalty charge nor of its escalation.
I did not receive any of the statutory notices so I have been unable to file a statutory declaration in the normally permitted time.
I have been living at my current address since 2/8/2019 (please find copy of tenancy contract and council tax bill attached as evidence).
I left my previous address on the 30th April (see attached screen shot of email) and travelled to France for 8 weeks (attached screen shot of ferry bookings).
It was whilst returning from Dover in the 27/06/2019 that I inadvertently went into the Low Emission Zone (my sat nav was set to no-tolls therefore missed the Dartford crossing).
Upon my return to the UK I stayed with my mother-in-law (see attached copy of child tax credits award registered at her address) .
I immediately returned my change of address slip from my V5 to the DVLA quoting the above address.
The logbook did not arrive within the timescale given by the DVLA and so I contacted them and was told a replacement would be issued to the above address.
I then moved out of the above address before the logbook could arrive.
I asked my mother-in-law to pass on the logbook when it arrived.
Yet again it appeared that it had not arrived and my road tax was due, I contacted the DVLA who assured me that the address had been changed and to await its arrival as it had only been sent out a day or two before and to pay my road tax over the phone which I did.
I consistently asked my mother-in-law if the logbook had arrived but due to a breakdown in our relationship she did not reply to any communication.
I then received a letter from the DVLA at my new address asking me to confirm my address and apply for a new logbook (see attached copy) which I promptly did.
I am as of today awaiting on the new logbook.
My first knowledge of the PCN was via an email from JBW debt recovery service.

For my PE2
I did not receive prior notification of this penalty charge.
I moved house on 30/04/2019 then again on the 02/08/2019 and thus had no prior knowledge of the penalty charge until an email arrived from JBW debt collection agency.
As i did not receive the Penalty Charge Notice i was unable to pay the fine in the permitted time.


Does this look okay? now confused as to which explanation goes on which form aaarrgghhh is it the long one on the PE2 or PE3?

This post has been edited by PhatDragon: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 18:17
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post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 17:20
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mummyof3
post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 18:20
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I left my previous address on the 30th April
It was whilst returning from Dover in the 27/06/2019 that I inadvertently went into the Low Emission Zone
Upon my return to the UK I stayed with my mother-in-law


So when you left the prev address on 30/04, did you put on a postal redirection to your M-I-L's address? as you seemingly went straight to her property when you returned to the UK
Do you have any redirection for any property address?


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PhatDragon
post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 18:51
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Hi mummyof3 thanks for the reply, no i didnt do a post redirect as we were unsure if we were intending to return to the UK at that point, we were travelling around and she wouldn't allow us to, she would only allow our tax credits to be redirected so i could keep them informed.
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Neil B
post Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 04:08
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You've got the forms back to front and it's way too long so as to be potentially confusing.

I hope others jump in to help.
I'm unable at mo.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PhatDragon
post Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 09:02
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Thanks Neil I am aware that it’s quite long and I wonder if that may be an issue. Not sure how to condense it and which bits are relevant/irrelevant.
Glad you set me right about the order of the forms, my head is so battered by it all I thought I may have got confused.
I’m making an appointment with the courts to get it signed today so hopefully someone can help me get it more concise and less rambling.
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Incandescent
post Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 11:54
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QUOTE (PhatDragon @ Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 09:02) *
Thanks Neil I am aware that it’s quite long and I wonder if that may be an issue. Not sure how to condense it and which bits are relevant/irrelevant.
Glad you set me right about the order of the forms, my head is so battered by it all I thought I may have got confused.
I’m making an appointment with the courts to get it signed today so hopefully someone can help me get it more concise and less rambling.

We have always in the past found this website very good. However the principle, (Sheila) can be busy, and although there is a lot of free stuff to look at, there is a small fee charged for assistance with OOT preparation. However, it can be money well spent if you owe a lot of money to the bailiff.

www.bailffadviceonline.co.uk
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hcandersen
post Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 12:14
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OP, start with the most recent issues, we must know where you are in the process.

On ** I received *** from enforcement agents enforcing a warrant made out against me regarding an unpaid penalty charge in respect of a failure to pay the following road user charging fee **********. I am required to pay *** by ***.

Prior to this date I had not received any correspondence or notices from either the authority or their agents.

From *** until *** I had led a somewhat itinerant existence: from ** to *** I was in ****; from ** to *** I was at **** Etc.

During this period my V5C stated ***.

I notified DVLA to amend this on ***. After some delay this was registered on ****(the docref date on the V5C).
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PhatDragon
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 07:54
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Thanks hcanderson, sorry for the delay i've been working away.

On 20/02/2020 I receivedan email from enforcement agents enforcing a warrant made out against me regarding an unpaid penalty charge in respect of a failure to pay the following road user charging fee (I don't know what the original fine was as i haven't seen the original PCN, the warrent addressed to my orginal address shows amount due £758 including court fee and any adjudication cost). I am required to pay £1068 immediately.

Prior to this date I had not received any correspondence or notices from either the authority or their agents.

From30/04/2019 until 02/08/2019 I had led a somewhat itinerant existence: from 30/04/2019 to 27/06/2019 I was in Spain & France; from 27/06/2019 to 02/08/2019 I was at(mother in laws address from 02/08/2019 to present day I am at (will insert my address.) .

During this period my V5C stated original address.

I notified DVLA to amend this on 28/06/2019.
After some delay this was registered on 23/10/2019 (to mother in laws address).
I have since notified them of my new address (current address) and am waiting on confirmation.

This definitely seems to make more sense than my original long ramble.

I have since had a letter from the debt recovery agents to say they are requesting a waarant for my present address.
I'm seeing a solicitor this afternoon to have my PE2 & PE3 signed.
I have made copies of ferry bookings, proof I was at mother in laws, tenancy agreement for my current address and council tax bill.
Would this be what I write on my PE2?
Does it need more info?

This post has been edited by PhatDragon: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 08:02
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hcandersen
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 09:26
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On 20/02/2020 I receivedan email from enforcement agents

???

Correct date pl.
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PhatDragon
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 09:32
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Sorry correct date of initial eamil 14/01.2020
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PhatDragon
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 10:10
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Having checked the warrant of control I notice that it was issued on the 16/12/2019 to my orginal address despite my V5C having a different address as of 23/10/19
Not sure if this is relevant but thought it may be worth mentioning.
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PhatDragon
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 10:40
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I have tried to view the original PCN on the transport for london page but it isnt coming up with the PCN number the debt agency gave me, is that because it has been passed to the bailiffs?
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hcandersen
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 11:18
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You have given us a timeline of:

Entered zone: 27 June 2019
You advised DVLA of a revised V5C on 28 June;
Earliest date TfL could request details: 29 June (you have until midnight of day following entry into zone in which to pay the charge);

Now we come to proof.
How did you notify DVLA?
And your proof?

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PhatDragon
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 12:27
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I sent off the change of address form to the DVLA the day after i arrived at my mother in laws, i can't think what proof i might have, i phoned them on several occasions chasing the new log book and was told on the first phone call that they would re-issue the log book (didn't tell me whether the change of address had gone into force then or not) when i chased it again, because i had moved again and my road tax was due i was told the address had been changed to mother in laws only a few days before and to await the new logbook , i paid the road tax over the phone.

I also recieved a letter from the DVLA at my now current address on the 25 November saying they believed i was now living at this address and to fill in a lost log book form which i did and sent 14 december I'm waiting on my new logbook, cheque, for payment of new logbook hasn't been cashed as of today.

Also after chatting with a friend who had lives in London i became aware that i may have been fined, i know ignorance is no defence, I emailed tfl (28/11/19) with my registration plate asking if there any outstanding penalty charges on my vehicle and received a reply saying there were none, i have email proof.
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PhatDragon
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 15:00
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I'd really like to get this emailed asap, had the forms signed today, not sure whether I should just send off what I have written and hope for the best, I need the worry of my van being clamped or taken to be gone, no van equals no work and no chance of paying, at least if i send it off now i can have a few weeks to find the money. Does anyone know if I am safe for ther next couple of days as the warrant isn't yet at this address, as I'd really like to increase my chances of success via advice from here.
Appreciate people are very busy and can't respond immediately,
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hcandersen
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 16:00
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You get one bite at this as regards TEC.

What do you have in writing at any stage from DVLA? With respect, writing paragraphs about phone calls doesn't help unless you confirmed these by email etc.

Your chances are enhanced if you can send TEC hard evidence, and only you know what you've got.
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PhatDragon
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 16:31
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In writing from the DVLA I recieved a letter dated 25 November 2019
We have recently been informed that you are in posession of the above vehicle.
(not sure if thats from my paying my road tax on-line or perhaps my m-i-l returning my new logbook to DVLA with my new addres without telling me).
However, not at the address we hold on our records.

It then goes on with details on how to chnage my address either using the V5C if I have it or using the V62 which i then did.

As far as evidence of sending the change of address notification, I do have a series of text messages sent to my m-i-l asking if the log book had arrived, but not until the 31/10/2019 but it does mention that i spoke to the DVLA a week earlier and they reassured me that the log book would arrive in time for my van being taxed on the 1/11/2019. (which it didn't according to my m-i-l but not sure if i believe her).

In terms of evidence of leaving my original address (not m-i-l) and traveling, I have an email of confirmation from my tenancy ending, screen shots of ferry bookings and a tax credits notice at mil's address, my new tenancy agreement here at my current address and my council tax bill.
I also have a copy of the email I sent to tfl asking about outstanding PCN's and the response received.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 16:36
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In writing from the DVLA I recieved a letter dated 25 November 2019
We have recently been informed that you are in posession of the above vehicle.
(not sure if thats from my paying my road tax on-line or perhaps my m-i-l returning my new logbook to DVLA with my new addres without telling me).
However, not at the address we hold on our records.


Is a torpedo, do not go anywhere near it, you'd be sunk.

Anything hard to your m-i-l with dates before the OfR was issued could work.


And a word to the wise: whenever you interact with officialdom, do it or confirm it in writing please.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 16:37
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PhatDragon
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 17:06
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I don't appear to have been sent an order of recovery, not sure if that means it hasn't been issued.
By using the debt collectors on-line portal i can see just a warrant of control.
The warrant of control has been issued but for my original address and that was on the 16/12/2019.
The address on my logbook was changed (taken from the online tax checker) on the 23/10/2019.
The messages between my mil and myself are dated 31/10/2019.

The letter I received from the debt agency states
' notices have been issued to a previous address. This is usually the address to which the vehicle was registered with the DVLA at the time the contravention occured unless an alternative address has been provided.'





I have sent you in messages a copy of the only notice i have seen taken from the debt agency on-line portal.
I had to copy and paste so let me know if you can read it, if not i'll tidy it up a bit.

Not sure if it sent the message, sorry very confusing i know.
I have copied it on here.

Warrant of Control – unpaid penalty charge

Name and address of the respondent [my name] (my original address before mil)

Penalty Charge No. LZ34195818 Vehicle Registration No. ******** Applicant Transport for London

Location of contravention A12 Blackwall Tunnel Northern Approach L70703

Date of contravention 27 Jun, 2019

Amount Due (including court fee and any adjudication cost) £758.00

To the certificated enforcement agent

Authorised by the Traffic Enforcement Centre Date: 16-Dec-2019 Time: 12:00 AM

Issued to the Enforcement Agent Date: 16-Dec-2019 Time: 03:21 PM

Warrant of Control - unpaid penalty charge

[my name] (my original address before mil)



The above named respondent has failed to pay a penalty charge registered at the Traffic Enforcement Centre at the County Court Business Centre as ordered. The Court has given authority to the above named applicant to issue this warrant to recover the sums shown.

You are instructed to use the procedure set out in Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 against the goods of the respondent and raise there from the sums detailed above and your costs set out in the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014.

Drawn upon the authority of: The Traffic Enforcement Centre, County Court Business Centre, St Katharine's House, 21 - 27 St Katharine's Street, Northampton, NN1 2LH (Telephone 0300 123 1059)
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Neil B
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 18:13
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QUOTE (PhatDragon @ Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 17:06) *
I don't appear to have been sent an order of recovery, not sure if that means it hasn't been issued.

Is issued by TfL when the debt was registered and is the last doc to go to your former address.

It gave you an opportunity, within 21 days, to make a Statutory Declaration to the effect you had not received the
PCN.

The whole point of PE2 is to explain why you could not make that Stat Dec in that 21 days.

So exactly what have you written on that?

QUOTE (PhatDragon @ Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 15:00) *
I'd really like to get this emailed asap

You've missed the 4pm processing deadline today.

QUOTE (PhatDragon @ Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 15:00) *
Does anyone know if I am safe for ther next couple of days as the warrant isn't yet at this address,

Well I have something to say about that warrant in a mo but the answer is no because your van can be clamped then seized
anywhere on the highway irrespective of warrant address.

QUOTE (PhatDragon @ Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 07:54) *
I have since had a letter from the debt recovery agents to say they are requesting a waarant for my present address.

They can't. Only TfL can request an amended warrant.
And, arguably, they can't either because it's in breach of Civil Procedure Rules.

CPR 75.7 (7)
"(7) Where the address of the respondent has changed since the issue of the warrant, the authority may request the reissue of the warrant by filing a request"

An expert friend of this forum is adamant about this but I can't think what to do about it because no one is policing
the behaviour of enforcement authorities and TEC in such matters.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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