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No entry sign in car park, PCN or FPN or Nothing?
asc1202
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 10:27
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Hi, I use the same car park all the time for work and never knew it was one way as I only ever really park right at the entrance, however its been really busy the past few days so I've had to go to the other side. I went through a 'junction' to get to a row of empty spaces on both Sunday and Tuesday (yesterday) and it was yesterday I realised it was one way, the sign is hard to see driving up as its facing the opposite way so you can't really see it at all. There is CCTV in that car park as it is owned by the council.

Obviously I did not do this on purpose, nor would I have done it if I could see the signs properly on the way round, so please refrain from any sarcastic comments. My question is, will I get a FPN through the post? If I did I know it would be 6 points as I did it twice which means I would have my licence revoked as I only passed just over a year ago.

This is in Daventry Northamptonshire if that makes any difference?

Thanks
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post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 10:27
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stamfordman
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 10:39
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The most you could get is a PCN - this is not a location where you would be prosecuted. If it's in the car park and not on-street there is no chance of a PCN.

As this section is for live cases there is nothing to do but wait and see if a PCN comes. I doubt one will.

What is the car park?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 10:39
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 10:47
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Nottingham cannot enforce moving traffic offences so if the police did not see you stop worrying


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stamfordman
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 10:51
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 11:47) *
Nottingham cannot enforce moving traffic offences so if the police did not see you stop worrying


+1 - except it's Northamptonshire, likewise.

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asc1202
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 10:59
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 11:39) *
The most you could get is a PCN - this is not a location where you would be prosecuted. If it's in the car park and not on-street there is no chance of a PCN.

As this section is for live cases there is nothing to do but wait and see if a PCN comes. I doubt one will.

What is the car park?


Great thank you! For your question of what is the car park, I might just be being stupid but I'm not 100% sure what you mean ahah, its just a long-stay open car park, not a retail one or anything!

The file should show the only photo I could really find for it, the photos 10 years old but it hasn't changed really

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 11:47) *
Nottingham cannot enforce moving traffic offences so if the police did not see you stop worrying


Not Nottingham but I understand, just got nervous because its so hard to see the signs so when I did I felt like an idiot, didn't even notice the road markings either because I'm so used to parking there!!
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stamfordman
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 11:02
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MOVING TRAFFIC CONTRAVENTIONS
Northamptonshire County Council does not currently enforce moving traffic contraventions e.g. banned turns and yellow box junctions. The responsibilities for these remain with the police.


https://www.northamptonshire.gov.uk/council...%20Revision.pdf

CP - this is a new doc (June 2020) for the database.
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asc1202
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 11:05
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 12:02) *
MOVING TRAFFIC CONTRAVENTIONS
Northamptonshire County Council does not currently enforce moving traffic contraventions e.g. banned turns and yellow box junctions. The responsibilities for these remain with the police.


https://www.northamptonshire.gov.uk/council...%20Revision.pdf

CP - this is a new doc (June 2020) for the database.


So because I wasn't seen by the police I'm all good right? Thank you so much, I was struggling to find proper documents when I realised my mistake, so it means a lot!
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cp8759
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 12:37
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 12:02) *
CP - this is a new doc (June 2020) for the database.

All updated, thanks


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cp8759
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 12:58
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QUOTE (asc1202 @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 12:05) *
So because I wasn't seen by the police I'm all good right?

You can be prosecuted based on the police seeing you, or members of the public catching you on dashcam, or (if there are multiple reports from people who are not connected to each other) based on the eyewitness testimony of members of the public.

However, a no entry sign is only an enforceable section 36 sign if it is placed "on or near a road", so a sign in the middle of a car park would likely not qualify. You could in theory be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention, but the chances of that being pursued are remote in the extreme.


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asc1202
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 13:27
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 13:58) *
QUOTE (asc1202 @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 12:05) *
So because I wasn't seen by the police I'm all good right?

You can be prosecuted based on the police seeing you, or members of the public catching you on dashcam, or (if there are multiple reports from people who are not connected to each other) based on the eyewitness testimony of members of the public.

However, a no entry sign is only an enforceable section 36 sign if it is placed "on or near a road", so a sign in the middle of a car park would likely not qualify. You could in theory be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention, but the chances of that being pursued are remote in the extreme.


I see, so even though the police didn’t see me, any potential drivers with dash cams could report it to the police and it be followed up through that, correct? I think I only saw one man in a car when I was driving round that I can remember, the other cars were empty I think.
Thanks for the help, I wasn’t aware about the section 36 information smile.gif
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cp8759
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 13:42
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As I said, the chances of the police doing anything about this are close to zero, it's just not worth the hassle.


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asc1202
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 14:07
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 14:42) *
As I said, the chances of the police doing anything about this are close to zero, it's just not worth the hassle.


Ahh understood, thank you for the help!😊
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asc1202
post Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 14:28
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Emailed the council (didn’t say that I had done anything wrong was enquiring about their use of CCTV) and they have said that if they see any criminal activity that they directly report it to relevant authorities🙃done nothing to calm me down
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666
post Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 15:40
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QUOTE (asc1202 @ Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 15:28) *
Emailed the council (didn’t say that I had done anything wrong was enquiring about their use of CCTV) and they have said that if they see any criminal activity that they directly report it to relevant authorities🙃done nothing to calm me down

It is extremely unlikely that the council would have reported you. As already said by cp8759, it is even more unlikely that the police would take any action. Stop worrying!
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asc1202
post Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 15:48
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QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 16:40) *
QUOTE (asc1202 @ Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 15:28) *
Emailed the council (didn’t say that I had done anything wrong was enquiring about their use of CCTV) and they have said that if they see any criminal activity that they directly report it to relevant authorities🙃done nothing to calm me down

It is extremely unlikely that the council would have reported you. As already said by cp8759, it is even more unlikely that the police would take any action. Stop worrying!


Worrying definitely is my speciality🤣thank you for the reply it definitely has helped reassure me!
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The Rookie
post Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 19:18
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If you worry that much that easily I’d suggest driving really isn’t for you!


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asc1202
post Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 20:07
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 20:18) *
If you worry that much that easily I’d suggest driving really isn’t for you!


Wow very helpful!! Just because of you I’ll hand my license in voluntarily, thank you so much for opening my eyes🥰
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southpaw82
post Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 20:46
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QUOTE (asc1202 @ Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 21:07) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 20:18) *
If you worry that much that easily I’d suggest driving really isn’t for you!


Wow very helpful!! Just because of you I’ll hand my license in voluntarily, thank you so much for opening my eyes🥰

laugh.gif


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dawmdt
post Tue, 4 Aug 2020 - 08:08
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 13:58) *
a no entry sign is only an enforceable section 36 sign if it is placed "on or near a road"


Is "near" defined anywhere either in statute or common law? And do they need some form of authorisation/order/paperwork at the LA to be placed/legal at all?


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cp8759
post Thu, 6 Aug 2020 - 14:46
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QUOTE (dawmdt @ Tue, 4 Aug 2020 - 09:08) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 13:58) *
a no entry sign is only an enforceable section 36 sign if it is placed "on or near a road"


Is "near" defined anywhere either in statute or common law? And do they need some form of authorisation/order/paperwork at the LA to be placed/legal at all?

Not that I know of, but I would say that somewhere in the middle of a car park is not "near" a road, to me "near" covers a situation where a sign can't be on the road itself but maybe the pole is planted right next to the road on land that is not accessible on foot or otherwise. I know of at least one case where Highways England has placed a sign for a motorway slip road on land that is technically a McDonalds car park for example.

As for your second query, not really, though I assume they'd need some sort of paper trail to show that the sign was placed there with proper authority and not as a pank.


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