PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Residents Only Parking Charge, Advice on POPLA appeal disputing private parking charge please
Anthonyf
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 22:59
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 68
Joined: 15 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,992



Hi Folks,
I found a windscreen ticket from a UKPC on my car a couple of months ago. I originally contested with the template appeal letter from the MSE Newbies thread.
UKPC have sent a letter rejecting my appeal, and giving a POPLA number, which I intend to use now.

I intend to send an appeal to POPLA with something along the lines of the following, and would be greatful of any opinions on my approach:.
(I’m the registered keeper, and have not identified the driver.)


I dispute the validity of the charge for parking in “Brocklesby Road” as stated on your ticket for the a number of reasons including:

1/ The signage at the entrance to the car park is entirely inadequate to convey any contract, and makes no mention of requirements for permits or any charge for parking, as shown in the images below.
LINK

2/ As residents of Brocklesby Road for the past 18 years, we understood the signage, which advises clearly “Residents Parking Only”, to allow the driver to park, as we have done occasionally for the past 18 years.

3/ We were not aware of any charge implied to park the car at the time of parking, and had not seen the two, newly erected, much smaller, unlit, and partially obscured, signs further within the carpark (shown below), or the extremely small notes on them about parking charges, or requirements for permits to be displayed, which are not visible at all from the entrance to the car park.
LINK


4/ Our parking has been Authorised by past and present residents of the surrounding flats and houses, who also have not been advised by UKPC of any change of parking conditions in their car park or any requirements for permits.

For these reasons we do agree any contract has been entered or breached and will not be paying the charge.

Yours sincerely
RK


If it help to understand our situation further:

My car was parked in a small car park less than 10m from my house.
It's nominally for the residents of the flats and houses that directly surround it, but those residents generally park in the street where parking is unrestricted, so that they don't have to manoeuvre in and out of the car park, leaving the car park generally empty and unused.

Occasionally parking spaces in the street fill up, so residents of the flats have advised us that if we need to we can always park in the visitor spaces marked with a "V" in their car park.

We've done this occasionally for the past 18 years that we've have lived here without problem, so was very surprised the car got a ticket on the windscreen.

On another tack - I’m pretty sure the car park itself is has multiple owners, as some of the spaces are included on the deeds of the surrounding houses, and I do not believe they have all been contacted by or contracted with UKPC, and from my reading of the forum, I felt this may have bearing on the contract they have alleged I have breached,

Grateful for any tips, recommendations of anything else you think I should add.
Many thanks for your time and consideration
Ant

This post has been edited by Anthonyf: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 23:00
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3 Pages V  < 1 2 3  
Start new topic
Replies (40 - 59)
Advertisement
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 22:59
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 21:57
Post #41


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,659
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Member No.: 32,130



QUOTE
Is there anything else I should do at this stage?
Yes this is your chance to send comments about the evidence to POPLA, and you only have a few days.

Who is Thandie Mumba who signed the WS and the boundary map? I can't find any such person in this Country who comes up on any search, except an employee of Wandsworth Council.

I think it's that person and they are not a property manager at all; I think this is just where they live and they have signed for the Residents Association and seemingly just made up a job title. Certainly nothing shows that the person who signed that is connected or authorised by the landowner.

More to the point, you said this, which is great:

QUOTE
I have not revealed the drivers identity


So...have you been sent any Notice to Keeper (not the windscreen PCN, not the rejection letter)? If no NTK, then the keeper appellant wins. Point it out to POPLA as your 1st comment.

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 21:57
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Anthonyf
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 22:15
Post #42


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 68
Joined: 15 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,992



Thanks ostell - so I should add a comment on the POPLA site to say:

Further to full details of my appeal, The witness statement provided from a signatory of the residents association is insufficient to show a contract with the landowner or agent. As I have shown the owner of the land is THE MAYOR AND BURGESSES OF THE LONDON BOROUGH OF CROYDON , on whose authority UKPC have no authority to issue tickets.

Anything else worth adding?


Thanks for looking into it too SchoolRunMum , I did receive an NTK.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 00:14
Post #43


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,659
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Member No.: 32,130



I would add that Thandie Mumba who signed the WS and the boundary map appears from online searches, to be an employee of Wandsworth Council and is not a 'property manager' or anything to do with the landowner. This is seemingly just made up a job title and it is noticeable that in the WS, although it states: 'property manager' it stops short of saying who Thandie Mumba works for - thus the signatory is unidentified and unreliable as a witness. The so called boundary map appears to be a work of fiction created by the same person, who this time is not claiming to be a property manager, but is merely connected to a 'Residents Association'. Certainly nothing shows that the person who signed that is connected or authorised by the landowner because a Residents Association does not have any title in land.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Anthonyf
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 06:36
Post #44


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 68
Joined: 15 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,992



Thanks all. So I intend to go with the following unless any more to add:

Thandie Mumba, the signatory on their site plan and witness statement appears to be an unreliable, and irrelevant witness for the following reasons..

(1) The site plan she has signed is completely inaccurate and entirely unreliable.
Note. For example (1a) the markings for E entrance on the left hand side, is shown on a wall , rather than the true position some 10m to the right of where currently shown.
(1b) Also that the boundary shown does not reflect the true ownership or control of the land, as I have shown in my appeal (please see my Letterofappeal.pdf, and Appendix 1 2& 3.pdf previously submitted) .

(2) Online searches suggest she may be fictitious , or perhaps a employee of Wandsworth council.
In either case there is no evidence that she, or UKPC Ltd has any authority in this matter.

This post has been edited by Anthonyf: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 10:09
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 08:51
Post #45


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,256
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



As you have discovered the land owned by the council could this perhaps make it not relevant land? POFA 3 (1) (b) & 3 (2) (e)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Anthonyf
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 09:33
Post #46


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 68
Joined: 15 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,992



Thanks Ostell - I did make that point in my appeal.

When I submit, will the operator get another chance to respond to my response?

Essentially they have not proven any authority to issue tickets at this stage at all, so seems watertight on my side for now as far as I can see?

This post has been edited by Anthonyf: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 09:48
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 10:18
Post #47


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,256
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



Sorry, didn't go to the previous page. Went to look and it would help if you were specific about which POFA section you are referencing. Point POFA to the correct bit as they probably can't be ar***d to look for themselves.

Yes, they get a chance to respond and you get copied on it and get a chance to respond. This is where you refute all their statements that you do not agree with. If you do not refute POPLA take it that you agree.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Anthonyf
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 11:09
Post #48


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 68
Joined: 15 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,992



A couple of slight tweaks, and am submitting this:

Thandie Mumba, the signatory on their site plan and witness statement appears to be an unreliable, and irrelevant witness for the following reasons.

(1) The site plan she has signed is largely inaccurate and entirely unreliable.
Note. For example (1a) the markings for E entrance on the left hand side, is shown on a wall , rather than the true position some 10m to the right of where currently shown.
(1b) Also that the boundary shown does not reflect the true ownership or control of the land, as I have clearly shown in my appeal (please see my Letterofappeal.pdf, and Appendix 1 2& 3.pdf, previously submitted to POPLA, also with reference to POFA 3 (1) (b) & 3 (2) (e)) .

(2) Online searches suggest she may be fictitious , or perhaps a employee of Wandsworth council.
In either case there is no evidence that she, or UKPC Ltd has any authority in this matter.

No right to claim any charges for parking has been shown by UKPC, so this entire action appears to be vexatious and huge waste of my time.

This post has been edited by Anthonyf: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 11:09
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 19:09
Post #49


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,659
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Member No.: 32,130



No they don't get a chance to respond to, or see your final comments.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 11:29
Post #50


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 19,083
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



You didnt add that "A residents association has not title in land, and cannot be the landowner. The WS is therefore clearly not from teh landowner, and has no relevace to this appeal in showing the operator has sufficient interest"

Use ALL the poitns given you, not jsut some!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Anthonyf
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 12:31
Post #51


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 68
Joined: 15 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,992



Thanks nosferatu1001, but I thought i had covered that, with the statement "In either case a there is no evidence that she, or UKPC Ltd has any authority in this matter."

Slightly tweaked here:

Thandie Mumba, the signatory on their site plan and witness statement appears to be an unreliable, and irrelevant witness for the following reasons.

(1) The site plan she has signed is largely inaccurate and entirely unreliable.
Note. For example (1a) the markings for E entrance on the left hand side, is shown on a wall , rather than the true position some 10m to the right of where currently shown.
(1b) Also that the boundary shown does not reflect the true ownership or control of the land, as I have clearly shown in my appeal (please see my Letterofappeal.pdf, and Appendix 1 2& 3.pdf, previously submitted to POPLA, also with reference to POFA 3 (1) (b) & 3 (2) (e)) .

(2) Online searches suggest she may be fictitious, or perhaps an employee of Wandsworth council.
In either case there is no evidence that she, Brocklesby Residents Association, or UKPC Ltd has any authority in this matter.

No right to claim any charges for parking has been shown by UKPC, so this entire action appears to be vexatious and huge waste of my time.



I'll submit it tonight



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 13:53
Post #52


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 19,083
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



No
Again
A residents association has no title to the land. It cannot do so, as it is merely an Association.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Anthonyf
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 14:45
Post #53


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 68
Joined: 15 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,992



But I think the residents association may own the freehold for the rest of the carpark?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 14:55
Post #54


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 19,083
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Gah...
So dont think! Find out! Land registry form OC2.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 15:32
Post #55


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40,543
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



It would be the first residents association with such a possession, the very title suggests it’s unlikely.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 15:35
Post #56


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 19,083
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Indeed, I would be shocked and surpirsed as well, but I hate the idea the OP is just guessing - and as a result isnt going to put across the very strict point that

THE RA DOES NOT OWN THIS LANDRAs have never owned freeholds to my knowledge. It would be a compelte nightmare if they did.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Anthonyf
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 19:13
Post #57


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 68
Joined: 15 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,992



Sorry, I have made that point, and i am not guessing,as I have shown who does own the land in my appeal - Croydon Council - and definitely not Brocklesby RA
Thanks for all you help - will submit later.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Anthonyf
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 20:05
Post #58


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 68
Joined: 15 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,992



Done. Will let you know how I get on.
Thanks all
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Anthonyf
post Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 20:01
Post #59


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 68
Joined: 15 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,992



Hello Folks. POPLA have rejected my appeal. Rejection letter

I showed a documents that says Croydon council own the land appendix 1 and appendix 2
but it seems I made a mistake sharing appendix 3 that showed they owned the land as well!

I didn't realize that was possible.Feeling pretty stupid for sharing that, as I don't think they had a case with out it.
Any point fighting on with this do you think?

This post has been edited by Anthonyf: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 20:06
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SchoolRunMum
post Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 21:23
Post #60


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,659
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Member No.: 32,130



Ooops, you provided their evidence?!

Ignore them until they sue, then fight it as we see some 99% of people win here and on MSE forum where some of us also post.

There is NO RISK of a CCJ as long as you do not ignore any court forms/deadlines, and make sure you keep them updated if you change address. UKPC are not worthy of your money, unless a Judge says you must pay (about £175, typically, instead of £100, in the odd case lost on these forums). Sit tight & come back at court stage - yes, it is likely, but yes, we see wins almost every time.

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 21:23
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Tuesday, 22nd January 2019 - 01:19
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.