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NIP received . 35 in a 30.
jayen44
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 14:27
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Hi all , not been here for a long time....

I have received a NIP for 35 mph in a 30 zone. This was apparently seen by 'manned equipment' .... ?

It states '' for the alleged offence of Exceed 30mph speed limit in contravention of a Local Traffic Order - manned equipment'' .

So..... Can I require them to provide photographic or video evidence to support their allegation ?? Also , from reading the accompanying letter
, it states ''Images of the offence will not be disclosed at this stage'' .... Why will they not provide proof of their claim ? Can I require them to
provide such information , as up to date calibration certificates etc etc ??

In my view , they not only are refusing to back up their claim , but they want one to self incriminate too !! Is that not an extremely one sided
manner in which to carry on ??

From the date / time of the alleged offence , it took them less than 48 hours to get a letter to me ! Chomping at the bit or what ? ;-)
In any event , I have zero money to be paying extortion attempts , having been out of work since june last year ! .... So ... how to proceed ??

Can I send them a letter explaining my present circumstances ? Will they even listen ? I just hate the one sided attitude of their communication !
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post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 14:27
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AntonyMMM
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 14:34
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The requirement is that a NIP is served on the registered keeper within 14 days, so they are under a time pressure to send them out - nothing unusual there.

35 in a 30 will be an offer of a speed awareness course (if you haven't done on in the past 3 years), but will cost you £90ish.

You can ask for any photos " to aid identification of the driver" which they will normally provide - but there is no requirement for any other evidence to be given to you until such time as the case goes to court.

At the moment - you are being asked to name the driver, once that is done an offer of a course (or an FPN) will follow which is the best option if you accept you were speeding.

Taking the case to court is a very risky and expensive option unless you have a worthwhile defence - which in most cases you won't. Asking for calibration certificates, and other pub myths, is a waste of time.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 14:42
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QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:27) *
So..... Can I require them to provide photographic or video evidence to support their allegation ??

No, absolutely you cannot require them to do so.

QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:27) *
In my view , they not only are refusing to back up their claim , but they want one to self incriminate too !!

They are making no claim, they are making an allegation, a subtly (but crucially) different thing, naming yourself as driver isn't self incriminating its merely admitting to being the driver at the time/place stated, it admits to committing no offence.

The Police do not have to prove anything unless/until the case gets to court, the 'system' will reward drivers who are prepared to accept their guilt with either a course or a (less onerous than court in most cases) fixed penalty but anyone accused is perfectly entitled to take it to court and make the Police prove their case, absent a mess up they will almost certainly be able to do that leaving the defendant worse off.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 14:43


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peterguk
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 14:43
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QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 14:27) *
Why will they not provide proof of their claim ? Can I require them to
provide such information , as up to date calibration certificates etc etc ??


You're entitled to no evidence until you elect to take the matter to court. By that time, any SAC or CoFP will have long gone.


QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 14:27) *
In any event , I have zero money to be paying extortion attempts , having been out of work since june last year ! .... So ... how to proceed ??

Can I send them a letter explaining my present circumstances ? Will they even listen ? I just hate the one sided attitude of their communication !


You financial cirrcumstances will be of no interest. Best to start saving £90 ish for a SAC, assuming you are offered one.


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Stoofa
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 14:43
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To be fair, at this stage they are not asking you to self incriminate yourself. They are saying that a vehicle with your registration mark was seen doing 35 in a 30 zone. They are asking you to provide details of the driver at the time of the incident.
Once you have completed this, you should be sent the offer of a speed awareness course - so no requirement for court, no points on your license. Or you can say that you are not guilty, in which case it's a day in court.
You don't seem to be disagreeing with the ticket - you haven't indicated that you couldn't have been there at the time nor have you indicated somebody else was driving.

The police can be mistaken, but it is highly unlikely. Catching speeders is akin to "shooting fish in a barrel" so there is no need for them to make things up.
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jayen44
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:26
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 14:42) *
QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:27) *
So..... Can I require them to provide photographic or video evidence to support their allegation ??

No, absolutely you cannot require them to do so.

QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:27) *
In my view , they not only are refusing to back up their claim , but they want one to self incriminate too !!

They are making no claim, they are making an allegation, a subtly (but crucially) different thing, naming yourself as driver isn't self incriminating its merely admitting to being the driver at the time/place stated, it admits to committing no offence.




Well , It might be 'nit picking' , but I'd say that if one admits to being the driver at the time in question, then using simple logic , you ARE self incriminating !
Isn't there something in 'law' that states that one is not compelled to give evidence against oneself ??..... All very one sided in my opinion.

QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 14:43) *
You financial cirrcumstances will be of no interest. Best to start saving £90 ish for a SAC, assuming you are offered one.



And what happens if I don't have or can't put together the £90 (or any other 'fine' ) ??

If I start a 'GoFundMe' page , will any of you guys donate ?? (awaits deafening silence).

This post has been edited by jayen44: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:27
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peterguk
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:30
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QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:26) *
And what happens if I don't have or can't put together the £90 (or any other 'fine' ) ??


It goes to court. Points, fine, costs. But time to pay.

Obviously you'll pay in the end since you have enough money to run a car. But there is no option to pay in instalments if you take a SAC or CoFP.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:31


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Jlc
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:33
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Essentially it is 'self incrimination' but has jumped all the necessary hurdles as per the sticky here. Failing to name the driver will net 6 points and a larger fine.

QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 14:27) *
Can I send them a letter explaining my present circumstances ? Will they even listen ? I just hate the one sided attitude of their communication !

Nope. Fixed penalties are fixed and do not consider ability to pay. It won't be any cheaper at court (almost certainly more) but you could agree a schedule.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:34


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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jayen44
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:44
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:30) *
QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:26) *
And what happens if I don't have or can't put together the £90 (or any other 'fine' ) ??


It goes to court. Points, fine, costs. But time to pay.

Obviously you'll pay in the end since you have enough money to run a car. But there is no option to pay in instalments if you take a SAC or CoFP.




There you go ... ''You'll pay in the end''.... A complete lack of flexibility or consideration !

Can I request that they just send me to jail ?? ..... (You think I'm joking ?) .... or maybe ask them to shoot me ??
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peterguk
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:48
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QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:44) *
A complete lack of flexibility or consideration !


Not really. Owning and driving a car comes with responsibilites. Same for all of us.


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Jlc
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:56
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If you do not have a defence (I guess that's one of the reasons you are here to explore the matter) then you won't want to plead not guilty at court. (That could attract costs of around £620 alone should you lose)

The fixed penalty system is for those who accept their 'guilt' and want to dispose of the matter with a known outcome, i.e. fixed penalty. (3 points £100) Otherwise, you have a right to take the matter to court and see the evidence against you but the fixed penalty is lost.

Unfortunately, having 'no' income is catered for at court with a minimum earnings of £120/week for fine calculations. A 33% discount is applied for an early guilty plea but costs of £85 and a surcharge of £30 will apply too.

QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:44) *
A complete lack of flexibility or consideration !

Can I ask what you are expecting here?

QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:44) *
Can I request that they just send me to jail ?? ..... (You think I'm joking ?) .... or maybe ask them to shoot me ??

Be careful what you wish for.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:53


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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jayen44
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:21
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:56) *
If you do not have a defence (I guess that's one of the reasons you are here to explore the matter) then you won't want to plead not guilty at court. (That could attract costs of around £620 alone should you lose)

The fixed penalty system is for those who accept their 'guilt' and want to dispose of the matter with a known outcome, i.e. fixed penalty. (3 points £100) Otherwise, you have a right to take the matter to court and see the evidence against you but the fixed penalty is lost.

Unfortunately, having 'no' income is catered for at court with a minimum earnings of £120/week for fine calculations. A 33% discount is applied for an early guilty plea but costs of £85 and a surcharge of £30 will apply too.

QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:44) *
A complete lack of flexibility or consideration !

Can I ask what you are expecting here?

QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:44) *
Can I request that they just send me to jail ?? ..... (You think I'm joking ?) .... or maybe ask them to shoot me ??

Be careful what you wish for.



Oh I know that I'm screwed. The court method that you've outlined above ,simply shows the lack of consideration / common sense ! It just adds
insult to injury in my book. ... After all , no one was caused loss or harm by my 'speeding' , were they ?? It's just another example of state
sponsored thievery in my opinion ! With all the things that have gone wrong in my life recently , I can well do without this nonsense.....
You say ''What am I expecting here ?'' ......
Simply that they don't cause me loss and or harm, by their actions....which they ARE doing. Did I cause anyone loss or harm ??.....No !

''Be careful what you wish for''......
Jail : Been there before (over another motoring 'offence' as it happens)..... or rather because I refused to bow down to them !
Shoot me: Let them do it..... won't have any more worries then , will I ? (and they won't be able to extort from me any further,too.)....
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Stoofa
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:24
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QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:44) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:30) *
QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:26) *
And what happens if I don't have or can't put together the £90 (or any other 'fine' ) ??


It goes to court. Points, fine, costs. But time to pay.

Obviously you'll pay in the end since you have enough money to run a car. But there is no option to pay in instalments if you take a SAC or CoFP.




There you go ... ''You'll pay in the end''.... A complete lack of flexibility or consideration !

Can I request that they just send me to jail ?? ..... (You think I'm joking ?) .... or maybe ask them to shoot me ??


Well obviously being shot is off the table, we don't live in some backwards country like the US where capital punishment is still acceptable.
However jail, I'm pretty sure that would be on the table - you've got every opportunity to avoid it getting to that level, but with the right answers to questions it would be an option open I'm sure.
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squaredeal
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:26
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:30) *
QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:26) *
And what happens if I don't have or can't put together the £90 (or any other 'fine' ) ??


It goes to court. Points, fine, costs. But time to pay.

Obviously you'll pay in the end since you have enough money to run a car. But there is no option to pay in instalments if you take a SAC or CoFP.

Actually you can pay in up to 3 equal installments when arranging a SAC, depending on how much time there is left to the cutoff point. The final balance MUST be paid no less than 7 days before the course date.
It won't be openly advertised as it's a PITA to be honest. But it's one of the criteria to be able to offer the National scheme. You may need to book over the phone, as not all online booking systems have the staged payments option available for self-bookers, just for office-based administrators.
Lose the attitude before calling though.
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Logician
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:27
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Shooting is not an option, but ultimately jail is.


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Artesia
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:39
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I thought +10% + 2 mph was allowed ?
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Stoofa
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:42
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QUOTE (Artesia @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:39) *
I thought +10% + 2 mph was allowed ?


Not quite, prosecution usually begins at 10%+2, hence 35 in a 30.
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cp8759
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 17:44
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QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:44) *
Can I request that they just send me to jail ??

Sure you can, they'll say no, you have to pay a fine. If you don't pay it, you'll end up in court again, if you say "just send me to jail", they will eventually oblige.


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peterguk
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 17:50
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QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:26) *
And what happens if I don't have or can't put together the £90 (or any other 'fine' ) ??


You could always stop putting fuel in your car until you've paid the SAC or fine....


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southpaw82
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 18:11
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QUOTE (jayen44 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:44) *
Can I request that they just send me to jail ??

You can request what you like but they won’t because they have no power to jail you for speeding. However, should you wilfully refuse to pay any fine imposed then they can jail you for that, which will wipe out the fine.

A point to note here: we are not agony aunts and unless other goings on in your life are legally relevant to your issue the official position is we’re not really interested. I mention this to highlight that you ought not to get your hopes up of any tea and sympathy, in the further hope that you don’t then react badly when you don’t get it. Equally, some posters ought to reflect that some comments here could be viewed as sanctimonious, and should I be in the wrong mood might result in bannings. The OP is apparently in a bad enough place as it is, they don’t need virtual finger wagging as well.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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