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Bus Lane Encroachment, Hull City Council
Andy54057
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 23:43
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Hello All,

Hopefully, this is in the correct forum (apologies if not).

I recently received two fines 3 mins apart for a bus lane infringement with my local city (Hull). These occurred on the same road three traffic lights and some 5-600mtrs apart.

I appealed to the council but that has been rejected with an option now to post a further appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

Now for the facts.

1) I accept I was in the bus lane (stupidly) during the active times.

2) I asked for some mitigating circumstances in my appeal, the offence occurred on a bank holiday Monday, I had always believed as the bus services run a Sunday time table, the roads were open as such, and the bus lane reverts to open for all hours as per a usual Sunday, apparently not.

3) The signage does state Mon-Sat however, it doesn't clarify if this includes bank holiday periods within the active times. I would've thought if issuing fines then there should be no scope for misunderstanding or confusion, a simple "Inc Bank Holidays" would've alleviated this. I had hoped that the fair presumption these would be operating as per all other public services/transport, might have these overturned. Even the local bus companies operate a Sunday time table on a Bank Holiday

4) On checking the footage I'm actually 02mins 40s apart, that's after three sets of traffic lights too.

5) It's my first ever offence of this type

I feel it's pretty harsh and obviously, really don't feel happy paying the fines. Between the Bank Holiday signage vagueness and the poor signage when entering the road (it is some distance off the road, the signs have the times in smaller print below the actual symbology), I hope a tribunal may go in my favour.

I'd be interested in any advice or experiences, at the point where I turned onto the road with the bus lane its a dual carriageway and signage isn't particularly obvious, the times are particularly difficult to read at 30 mph.

As stated previously, the second offence took place in the same bus lane, three sets of traffic lights and 500 meters up the road, its the same offence but again the council have decided to enforce a separate fine despite my initial appeal stating my error of not recognising the active times and single journey generating two fines.

Hope you may help
Thanks
Andy
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post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 23:43
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Andy54057
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 11:00
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Just drafted a quick appeal document for the tribunal services, feel free to critique my language or points.

Available to view in my Dropbox folder

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8dg9bgepijuxees/..._JPeDi8Wba?dl=0
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 11:31
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QUOTE (Andy54057 @ Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 12:00) *
Just drafted a quick appeal document for the tribunal services, feel free to critique my language or points.

Available to view in my Dropbox folder

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8dg9bgepijuxees/..._JPeDi8Wba?dl=0


Sorry to be blunt. It really is abysmal. it is full of waffle and points that have no merit. The signage is clear enough to be found substantially compliant, The adjudicator cannot rule on mitigation so the bank holiday argument is void and it is a formal legal submission not an invitation for a chat.

You have one point that you can make re both. That the council misstate the discount payment period by citing 21 days where the regulations only allow 14

and for the second the continuous/continuing contravention

You have until the 19th to file your appeal take this time one of us will help but unfortunately I cannot spend the time this week or the early part of next




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All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Andy54057
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 13:23
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 12:31) *
QUOTE (Andy54057 @ Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 12:00) *
Just drafted a quick appeal document for the tribunal services, feel free to critique my language or points.

Available to view in my Dropbox folder

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8dg9bgepijuxees/..._JPeDi8Wba?dl=0


Sorry to be blunt. It really is abysmal. it is full of waffle and points that have no merit. The signage is clear enough to be found substantially compliant, The adjudicator cannot rule on mitigation so the bank holiday argument is void and it is a formal legal submission not an invitation for a chat.

You have one point that you can make re both. That the council misstate the discount payment period by citing 21 days where the regulations only allow 14

and for the second the continuous/continuing contravention

You have until the 19th to file your appeal take this time one of us will help but unfortunately, I cannot spend the time this week or the early part of next


Thanks for the reply and I'll take the advice, don't mind the blunt criticism at all that's why I've asked the question here.

I've mentioned the signage as even though in design it may be compliant the current condition at the time (via photo evidence) clearly demonstrates the times for restrictions are not eligible as a result of vandalism and defacing of these signs.

My comments at aimed at the council are just that they have acted in an evasive and unhelpful way when I've raised these concerns especially the times indicated to justify the second PCN, I thought it might swell the body of evidence in my favour.

More than happy to take the points on board, it was a quick draft whilst finishing up at work.
Thanks
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cp8759
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 14:22
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QUOTE (Andy54057 @ Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 14:23) *
My comments at aimed at the council are just that they have acted in an evasive and unhelpful way when I've raised these concerns especially the times indicated to justify the second PCN, I thought it might swell the body of evidence in my favour.

Unfortunately your comments, while aimed at the council, are more likely to annoy the adjudicator than anything else. The risk you then run is that any valid points will be lost in all the background noise, so it's far better to focus your appeal on the two grounds that have been identified as having merit.

Have you had a chance to actually read the Papjinder Gahir decision? If not, do so now. You need to draw a parallel to that case and persuade the tribunal to follow the same principle, it's not a question of just saying "Papjinder Gahir v London Borough of Havering, ta-da I've won". You should also read Mohammad Shah Alam v London Borough of Newham (2180143104, 30 June 2018) here: http://bit.ly/2ZeRfVN

Once more, it is for you to explain to the adjudicator why there are parallels between those cases and your own, you cannot rely on the adjudicator coming up with this himself. It's not unheard of for adjudicators to get things wrong if they are not appropriately spoon-fed, but after all in this country we have an adversarial system so it's up to you to present your case.

Try putting another draft together and I'll see if I can tidy it up for you.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Andy54057
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 16:13
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Hi all,


The second attempt at my appeal letter, need to do this on Sunday Night / Monday so any advice would be appreciated

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xk3a89afjguzl73/P...opbox.docx?dl=0

Further DropBox evidence:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8dg9bgepijuxees/..._JPeDi8Wba?dl=0


Thanks

Andy
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cp8759
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 16:44
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Bin your appeal and use this instead: http://bit.ly/2KUp3DC

You will need to download it, add in your name and the case reference (see the bits in red), save as a PDF and upload to the tribunal website. Also download http://bit.ly/2ZeRfVN and http://bit.ly/2WvfDkC and upload them to the tribunal website.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Andy54057
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 19:51
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That's superb thank you very much.

Should I upload anything else such as pictures or just the council's documents from my PCN's...?
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cp8759
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 19:54
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The council will upload all the documents so don't worry about that.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Andy54057
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 20:41
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Brilliant, thank you again so much along with others for the help, I'll let you all know how it goes and what correspondence I recieve.

Thanks
Andy
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Andy54057
post Thu, 4 Jul 2019 - 10:39
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Hello All,

Just wanted to update you all, the local authority chose not to contest my appeals to the traffic penalty tribunal so great success the appeal was successful.

I'd just like to thank you all, without the help and advice on here I don't think I would've succeeded. Not sure of the protocol do folk normally donate a few quid to a charity of someones choosing or not.


Replies and findings of the appeal are on files Judgements 1,2 & 3, all in my dropbox, link below.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8dg9bgepijuxees/..._JPeDi8Wba?dl=0
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