claim against my company, how to defend |
claim against my company, how to defend |
Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 11:47
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 30 Mar 2011 Member No.: 45,518 |
Hello
A company, for which I am a shareholder has received a claim form from the county court. The claim is for an unpaid invoice. The invoice in question is nothing to do with the company (X ltd), but for one of our subsidiary's (Y ltd) which is wholly owned by X ltd. The service address is X ltd, but at Y ltd's address. X ltd is a Scottish company, whereas Y ltd is an English company. X ltd does not trade at Y ltd's address. Y ltd is quite happy to pay the bill, but has never received the original invoice, nor any reminders or a letter before action. How should we defend this? X ltd is not liable for the debt, but Y ltd is, but would dispute any additional charges as unreasonable behavior. I am going to file the AOS, but interested in how to word the defence. Any advice greatly received. |
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Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 11:47
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Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 12:07
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Simply that they have the wrong defendant, especially if their own claim makes that clear.
I’d also contact them and ask if they want to pay your costs for being unreasonable or if they would actually like to invoice the right customer instead! That’s my take anyway. This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 12:07 -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 12:08
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,825 Joined: 16 Nov 2008 Member No.: 24,123 |
Hello A company, for which I am a shareholder has received a claim form from the county court. The claim is for an unpaid invoice. The invoice in question is nothing to do with the company (X ltd), but for one of our subsidiary's (Y ltd) which is wholly owned by X ltd. The service address is X ltd, but at Y ltd's address. X ltd is a Scottish company, whereas Y ltd is an English company. X ltd does not trade at Y ltd's address. Y ltd is quite happy to pay the bill, but has never received the original invoice, nor any reminders or a letter before action. How should we defend this? X ltd is not liable for the debt, but Y ltd is, but would dispute any additional charges as unreasonable behavior. I am going to file the AOS, but interested in how to word the defence. Any advice greatly received. X LTD writes to them explaining that they are a Scottish company and there are Jurisdiction issues and it has nothing to do with them. Y LTD writes and asks why they've not received an invoice as they'd like to pay. X LTD keeps an eye on deadlines and reacts accordingly in the face of no reply. |
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Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 12:37
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#4
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
X ltd is not liable for the debt, but Y ltd is, Just to be sure, X Ltd hasn't given any kind of parent company guarantee for Y Ltd's debts, has it? -------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 13:09
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 30 Mar 2011 Member No.: 45,518 |
X ltd is not liable for the debt, but Y ltd is, Just to be sure, X Ltd hasn't given any kind of parent company guarantee for Y Ltd's debts, has it? No - the contract was formed "verbally", but Y ltd don't dispute they agreed to pay. Am I right in that for them to claim against us as a Scottish company they should have used the Scottish system, and therefore we should defend on the basis that; - they've got the wrong company, and; - that we contest jurisdiction. Can the defence simply be that "they've got the wrong company", or should we include more information? |
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Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 13:27
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 30 Mar 2011 Member No.: 45,518 |
This is my suggested reply to the client (we will of course do AOS and file defense later)
--------------- Dear Claiment We have received a county court claim from yourselves for an unpaid invoice. X Ltd have no record of this invoice, nor have received any letter before action from yourselves/your client. X Ltd do not trade or operate in any capacity at ADDRESS. If you had followed Pre action protocol this would have been apparent to you before filing unnecessary court paperwork. This premise is the operating and registered address of Y ltd. It is suggested you discontinue your claim and contact the correct company in order to settle your claim. If X Ltd is forced to defend this claim we will draw the attention of the court to your unreasonable behaviour in bringing this claim without following pre action protocol. |
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Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 16:09
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 196 Joined: 23 Aug 2013 Member No.: 64,667 |
Wow. How about - 'someone' (could be from X or Y... doesn't really matter), phones the invoicing company and asks if they'll retract the claim after Y pay the invoice?
This could be sorted without even picking up a pen/touching a keyboard... What happened to good old people skills? Or is there more to this than meets the eye? This post has been edited by bm1957: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 16:10 |
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Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 17:11
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Wow. How about - 'someone' (could be from X or Y... doesn't really matter), phones the invoicing company and asks if they'll retract the claim after Y pay the invoice? This could be sorted without even picking up a pen/touching a keyboard... What happened to good old people skills? Or is there more to this than meets the eye? +1, I'm sure something like "Email us the invoice and the money will be in your account by the end of the day" would attack a positive response. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 10:56
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 30 Mar 2011 Member No.: 45,518 |
Wow. How about - 'someone' (could be from X or Y... doesn't really matter), phones the invoicing company and asks if they'll retract the claim after Y pay the invoice? This could be sorted without even picking up a pen/touching a keyboard... What happened to good old people skills? Or is there more to this than meets the eye? Because when I've phoned up they said "speak to our lawyer". The law firm says "speak to our client". X ltd now have a claim against it, from a party never contracted by X, and from a company not willing to even discuss with us (and who have made no attempt to contact us before making the claim - they hadn't even sent the invoice!) It is my understanding that if Y ltd paid the amount (invoice, excluding the "lawyer fee and court fee"), then the claimant can still continue to claim against X ltd? If that's not the case I'll advise Y ltd to simply pay the amount on Monday and X ltd will simply defend the claim on the basis they have the wrong company. |
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Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 11:13
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Wow. How about - 'someone' (could be from X or Y... doesn't really matter), phones the invoicing company and asks if they'll retract the claim after Y pay the invoice? This could be sorted without even picking up a pen/touching a keyboard... What happened to good old people skills? Or is there more to this than meets the eye? Because when I've phoned up they said "speak to our lawyer". The law firm says "speak to our client". X ltd now have a claim against it, from a party never contracted by X, and from a company not willing to even discuss with us (and who have made no attempt to contact us before making the claim - they hadn't even sent the invoice!) It is my understanding that if Y ltd paid the amount (invoice, excluding the "lawyer fee and court fee"), then the claimant can still continue to claim against X ltd? If that's not the case I'll advise Y ltd to simply pay the amount on Monday and X ltd will simply defend the claim on the basis they have the wrong company. While my preference would be to talk to them, if they won't talk, sod 'em. I would be looking at not asking Y to pay and defending on the basis of no contract with X, no case to answer. I also wonder if the powers that be at the claimant company know what is happening ? What sort of company is it, one man band or what ? |
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Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 13:08
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
a verbal contract you agree is due. Pop round with a cheque
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 15:38
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 30 Mar 2011 Member No.: 45,518 |
a verbal contract you agree is due. Pop round with a cheque X ltd has never agreed anything. Y ltd made the verbal contract, which they agree would be due, but have never received an invoice to pay. The first thing they have found out is receiving court papers, in the name of X ltd, at their trading address. X ltd are going to defend on the basis they are the wrong party. Y ltd are going to write to the claimant agreeing to pay once the invoice is sent. Should X ltd also contest jurisdiction when acknowledging the AOS? |
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Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 16:42
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Get Y to send a cheque, then file a defence that the debt has been paid (I believe there's a tick-box on the defence form for this), end of.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 14:08
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 30 Mar 2011 Member No.: 45,518 |
As an update, X ltd sent a reply as indicated in the chain above, telling the client/lawyer that we had never entered into an agreement, that they had the wrong address and the wrong company.
Y ltd meanwhile phoned the creditor and made payment relating to the invoice they never received. X ltd have now received the below letter from the lawyer, seemingly ignoring the fact that X ltd have made no payment to their client (they haven't - it was made from Y ltd's bank account), and ignoring the fact we've told them we do not operate or trade at that address. The lawyer was already well aware we operate at a Scottish address as they sent us a letter there saying they had check our address on companies house (after making the claim at a different address). We have acknowledged service and intend to defend in full. I am going to send another letter back to the lawyer, but at what point should I start pointing out this is now costing us money to deal with? Their letter strikes me as no better than a debt collectors letter, stating they will "enter judgement against" us and "instruct the bailiff to levy execution without further reference to" us. I've so far been very reasonable, but this is now infuriating. -------------- Dear client/lawyer We have been passed another letter, addressed to us, but sent to the address of Y Ltd. We have already informed you that X Ltd do not trade or operate at the Newcastle address. We reiterate to you that X Ltd have never entered into any contract with yourself/client. We reiterate that at no time have we received any letters, invoices or letter before action from yourself/client. X Ltd have made no payment of any kind to yourself/client. You are well aware that our address is Scottish address as you managed to send a letter to that address after filing unnecessary court papers. As previously noted, X Ltd will robustly defend any claim on the above points. You are taking action against the wrong company. Please withdraw your claim to avoid us incurring unnecessary costs We will be unable to enter into any more correspondence that is sent to Newcastle. Kind Regards This post has been edited by stevensan: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 15:55 |
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Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:00
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
QUOTE As previously noted, X Ltd will robustly defend any claim on the above points. You are taking action against the wrong company. Please withdraw your claim to avoid us incurring unnecessary costs As previously noted, X Ltd will robustly defend any claim on the above points and that you are taking action against the wrong company. We require you to immediately confirm withdrawal of the action, it is untenable and will only incur costs that will be borne by yourselves or your clients. Please also note that our correct postal address is on the letterhead, any letters or notices sent to any other address cannot be regarded as served. Just my take, a more robust repost is required then yours IMO. This post has been edited by DancingDad: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:00 |
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Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 18:07
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
If they don't drop this I would ask for costs, even if the case is allocated to the small claims track the court retains a power to make an order for costs against a party that has behaved unreasonably. You might also have grounds to apply for the case to be struck out prior to allocation, in which case the small claims track rules won't apply and you'll be entitled to your costs in the normal way, but we'd need to see the claimant's pleadings to advice on that.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 12:47
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 442 Joined: 14 Feb 2015 Member No.: 75,738 |
The only ones rubbing their hands here are the solicitors as usual.
What a farce! |
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Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 12:48
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 30 Mar 2011 Member No.: 45,518 |
thanks - i'll revise the letter to make it stronger. I'm conscious of trying to appear reasonable should this ever get in front of a judge.
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Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 13:49
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
thanks - i'll revise the letter to make it stronger. I'm conscious of trying to appear reasonable should this ever get in front of a judge. You can be reasonable and assertive at the same time. Arkell v Pressdram would not IMO be unreasonable, this is a totally unfounded claim against your company. But probably better to be more polite. |
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Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 10:48
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 30 Mar 2011 Member No.: 45,518 |
I've revised as suggested and sent the letters today. Will see what they come back with...
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