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My car was towed away for parking slightly infront of someones driveway unobstructively.. Do I have any hope of appealing?, Threads merged
hazz_dude
post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 22:31
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Hi all, just made an account moments ago to post this and was hoping someone might be able to advise me..

I usually drop my son off at his nursery early in the morning and then drive to the nearest train station to park my car. A few minutes away from the train station there is a small residential road that usually has spots available so I parked as normal and headed to work. There are dashed lines showing where you can park and there are no signes warning that vehicles will be towed/clamped etc.

In the evening on my way back to get my car and quickly drive to pick my son up I was horrified to see my car completely gone. I was dumbfounded for a few minutes walking up and down the road pressing unlock on my key like my car was going to magically spring out from hiding.. wacko.gif when I eventually came to my senses I called an uber and went and picked up my son and got him home on my lap.

I started looking into it and found out on TRACE that my car was towed for being "Parked adjacent to a dropped footway".

The annoying part is there was really no reason to tow me. Yes I may have fractionally crossed a boundary onto the exit of someones driveway but I honestly tried to parked as considerately as I was able to, to not be obstructive. Also the car in the driveway that I was 'obstructing' was a car with no wheels, and there were 2 wheelie bins at the top of the drive that the back of my car was parked flush with (conveniently removed for the PCN photos).

My car was impounded, but like I said above, I drive my son to his nursery every day so I needed to get my car back and had no choice but to jump on a bus down there and pay the full amount. '£200 removal fee' and £65 for the PCN angry7.gif To be honest with you all (as I'm sure many of you can relate to) I need a surprise £265 bill right now like I need a hole in the head.

Please see the images from the PCN 'evidence' here: https://imgur.com/a/n57C657
Google street view: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6631702,-0....3312!8i6656


I would love to know if anyone thinks I might have a chance to appeal this and how I should go about it.
Thanks for reading!

This post has been edited by Fredd: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 12:26
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post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 22:31
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hcandersen
post Sun, 12 Apr 2020 - 15:12
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You were parked adjacent to a dropped footway; you were issued with a PCN; and you were towed.

Their NOR:

'A complaint was made .....to our parking contractor for them to carry out enforcement..

A PCN was issued

Parking adjacent to a dropped footway is prohibited by statute (s14 LLA Act 2003)

In the case where residential premises have a driveway...the borough council may not issue a PCN unless requested..by the occupier of the premises.'

B******s.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/schedule/7 Part 1, s3(2)(b) refers, which relates to;

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86 S86(9)(a)



In short, the prohibition is statutory (Traffic Management Act) and also enforceable under that act by virtue of the prohibition being as if it were a traffic order under the RTRA 1974 which states in s8 that

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/8

Which then feeds back to the first reference.

Nothing whatever to do with the Act to which they refer. A big blunder by them, but would an adjudicator allow an appeal on this basis alone. Who knows because you wouldn't put this to the test. You would also claim that, as I've set out in the extracts from the NOR, the authority gave little, if any, consideration to your reps, which in short were based on de minimis (referring to the occupier's extended driveway width but without obtaining a similarly extended crossover) and the lack of any use for the dropped footway, but simply acted like their parking contractor who attended and issued a PCN without giving any consideration to the specific circumstances - almost as if they were a puppet or hired-hand of the occupier - which arguments could be extended to the tow itself.

In their minds, the occupier complained; the PCN and tow were therefore valid; and, without giving your reps any consideration, these were consequently rejected.

Wrong.

To use the term 'higher' (which has featured in another thread) correctly, the authority's duty is higher than simply nodding through a PCN, even if the CEO could not be faulted.

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hazz_dude
post Sun, 12 Apr 2020 - 15:44
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 11 Apr 2020 - 15:38) *
What are you trying to send to London tribunals?


I havent sent anything yet, just trying to have a feel around the website to see the process. I don't 'submit' anything and just exit out. Gonna wait till I get a draft together then I'll go all the way to submit it.


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 12 Apr 2020 - 15:12) *
You were parked adjacent to a dropped footway; you were issued with a PCN; and you were towed.

Their NOR:

'A complaint was made .....to our parking contractor for them to carry out enforcement..

A PCN was issued

Parking adjacent to a dropped footway is prohibited by statute (s14 LLA Act 2003)

In the case where residential premises have a driveway...the borough council may not issue a PCN unless requested..by the occupier of the premises.'

B******s.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/schedule/7 Part 1, s3(2)(b) refers, which relates to;

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86 S86(9)(a)



In short, the prohibition is statutory (Traffic Management Act) and also enforceable under that act by virtue of the prohibition being as if it were a traffic order under the RTRA 1974 which states in s8 that

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/8

Which then feeds back to the first reference.

Nothing whatever to do with the Act to which they refer. A big blunder by them, but would an adjudicator allow an appeal on this basis alone. Who knows because you wouldn't put this to the test. You would also claim that, as I've set out in the extracts from the NOR, the authority gave little, if any, consideration to your reps, which in short were based on de minimis (referring to the occupier's extended driveway width but without obtaining a similarly extended crossover) and the lack of any use for the dropped footway, but simply acted like their parking contractor who attended and issued a PCN without giving any consideration to the specific circumstances - almost as if they were a puppet or hired-hand of the occupier - which arguments could be extended to the tow itself.

In their minds, the occupier complained; the PCN and tow were therefore valid; and, without giving your reps any consideration, these were consequently rejected.

Wrong.

To use the term 'higher' (which has featured in another thread) correctly, the authority's duty is higher than simply nodding through a PCN, even if the CEO could not be faulted.


Some more great points to make, Thanks man. I'll put these points into the new appeal also
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hazz_dude
post Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 11:59
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 12 Apr 2020 - 15:12) *
You were parked adjacent to a dropped footway; you were issued with a PCN; and you were towed.

Their NOR:

'A complaint was made .....to our parking contractor for them to carry out enforcement..

A PCN was issued

Parking adjacent to a dropped footway is prohibited by statute (s14 LLA Act 2003)

In the case where residential premises have a driveway...the borough council may not issue a PCN unless requested..by the occupier of the premises.'

B******s.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/schedule/7 Part 1, s3(2)(b) refers, which relates to;

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86 S86(9)(a)



In short, the prohibition is statutory (Traffic Management Act) and also enforceable under that act by virtue of the prohibition being as if it were a traffic order under the RTRA 1974 which states in s8 that

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/8

Which then feeds back to the first reference.

Nothing whatever to do with the Act to which they refer. A big blunder by them, but would an adjudicator allow an appeal on this basis alone. Who knows because you wouldn't put this to the test. You would also claim that, as I've set out in the extracts from the NOR, the authority gave little, if any, consideration to your reps, which in short were based on de minimis (referring to the occupier's extended driveway width but without obtaining a similarly extended crossover) and the lack of any use for the dropped footway, but simply acted like their parking contractor who attended and issued a PCN without giving any consideration to the specific circumstances - almost as if they were a puppet or hired-hand of the occupier - which arguments could be extended to the tow itself.

In their minds, the occupier complained; the PCN and tow were therefore valid; and, without giving your reps any consideration, these were consequently rejected.

Wrong.

To use the term 'higher' (which has featured in another thread) correctly, the authority's duty is higher than simply nodding through a PCN, even if the CEO could not be faulted.


Hey guys, hope you're all doing good!

I've just taken some time to draft up a little paragraph giving a bit of an outline for the tribunal. Not going into too much detail and not bringing up the points about the legislation issues mentioned above as I wasn't sure if it would be a good idea to include these or the best way to incorporate them.

Also which box should be ticked for 'grounds for appeal'? I ticked 3 of them.. but not sure if that is allowed? (I ticked the 'procedural impropriety' one on my initial reps to the council)

I've uploaded my draft screencap here: https://imgur.com/a/wUDJWeU

Any advice would be heartily appreciated, take care!

H
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cp8759
post Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 17:36
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Well first things first, are you going to appeal online or by sending the paper form? You don't do both.

Which boxes you tick is not that important and won't make any material difference.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hazz_dude
post Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 20:33
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 17:36) *
Well first things first, are you going to appeal online or by sending the paper form? You don't do both.

Which boxes you tick is not that important and won't make any material difference.


Aiming for an online appeal, will electronically fill in the scanned appeal documents and send it to them
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cp8759
post Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 21:23
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QUOTE (hazz_dude @ Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 21:33) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 17:36) *
Well first things first, are you going to appeal online or by sending the paper form? You don't do both.

Which boxes you tick is not that important and won't make any material difference.


Aiming for an online appeal, will electronically fill in the scanned appeal documents and send it to them

Why would you bother scanning the paper form, when you can just type into the boxes on the website? It's like saying you're going to email someone by scanning a hand-written letter and sending it as an attachment, you could but why on earth would you want to.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 - 17:09


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hazz_dude
post Wed, 22 Apr 2020 - 09:35
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 21:23) *
Why would you bother scanning the paper form, when you can just type into the boxes on the website? It's like saying you're going to email someone by scanning a hand-written letter and sending it as an attachment, you could by why on earth would you want to.


Ok fair enough, That's how I had to submit my last reps to the council so I assumed it would be the same. If there is text boxes to write it in then great!

More importantly I'd like to find out if the brief outline I gave sounds sufficient to you guys on here or if I should add more or leave anything out?

Thanks,
H

This post has been edited by hazz_dude: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 - 09:37
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cp8759
post Wed, 22 Apr 2020 - 17:11
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To be honest I think it needs re-doing. I would suggest you register the appeal online and just write "full grounds of appeal to follow in due course", this will force the council to show its hand first.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hazz_dude
post Thu, 23 Apr 2020 - 10:54
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 22 Apr 2020 - 17:11) *
To be honest I think it needs re-doing. I would suggest you register the appeal online and just write "full grounds of appeal to follow in due course", this will force the council to show its hand first.


I think it would probably be best to write something in there when prompted to do so? Is there anything that anyone could suggest that I add/remove to improve it?



This post has been edited by hazz_dude: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 - 11:13
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hcandersen
post Thu, 23 Apr 2020 - 11:28
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OP, you are absolutely correct.

IMO, it is a nonsense to suggest that your defence is best conducted by not putting the non-reps points to the authority first i.e. "full grounds of appeal to follow in due course", this will force the council to show its hand first". After all, it is their conduct which is under scrutiny, conduct which ONLY became apparent on receipt of their NOR (different considerations if you're simply rehashing constant themes).

So, for any points arising from the NOR e.g. failure to consider etc, put them in the narrative box 'in addition to my grounds of representation I am appealing on the grounds that the authority did/did not do X,Y,Z'. These comments would go the the authority in time for THEM to address in their evidence to the adjudicator, absence of which is a plus point to you when it comes to arguing the points in your full appeal.
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hazz_dude
post Fri, 24 Apr 2020 - 10:27
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 23 Apr 2020 - 11:28) *
OP, you are absolutely correct.

IMO, it is a nonsense to suggest that your defence is best conducted by not putting the non-reps points to the authority first i.e. "full grounds of appeal to follow in due course", this will force the council to show its hand first". After all, it is their conduct which is under scrutiny, conduct which ONLY became apparent on receipt of their NOR (different considerations if you're simply rehashing constant themes).

So, for any points arising from the NOR e.g. failure to consider etc, put them in the narrative box 'in addition to my grounds of representation I am appealing on the grounds that the authority did/did not do X,Y,Z'. These comments would go the the authority in time for THEM to address in their evidence to the adjudicator, absence of which is a plus point to you when it comes to arguing the points in your full appeal.


Cheers!

So when prompted with any kind of text box in my initial appeal I'll write the following in:

Dear Sir/Madam,

In addition to my grounds of representation (also attached for your convenience and consideration) I am appealing on the grounds that the authority gave very little, if any, regard to the individual points that I presented in my representations in their their notice of rejection.

Specifically the point I made which was based on the de minimis principle; in that the occupiers extended driveway was still fully accessible, the area where the 'dropped footway' began was ambiguous in this instance, I was parked as much as possible (with due consideration) within the marked bays and the occupiers vehicle was immobilised and propped up on axle stands until at least the next day.

It is apparent to me from the facts that the authority issued a PCN, and furthermore the tow, without giving any consideration to the specific circumstances, almost as if they were summoned as a hired-hand of the occupier. I sincerely hope that you are able to consider all of the facts presented, and come to a decision to have the money I have paid refunded.

Looking forward to your reply.
Kind Regards,
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