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PCN Crawley
Tanzanyte
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 21:44
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Hi,

I'm after advice please. I'm disabled and have a blue badge. Having only ever had 1 parking ticket in the 10 years of owning a blue badge (and that was due to a parking attendant giving me wrong information when I first got my badge, I don't quite know how I've got 2 in 1 week). Today I have received another ticket from Crawley for parking in Cross Keys. I haven't ever been to Crawley before and drove past the full disabled bays and pulled into the side road heading to another car park whereby 3-4 other blue badge holders were parked on the double yellow lines on the opposite side of the road to a private car park. When I got back to my car I had another ticket, again code 01, yet I was sure I was 10metres away from the main junction and there was no signage anywhere to say I couldn't park there. Would I have been issued with the PCN because I was too close to a private car park junction even if I'm not causing an actual obstruction?
Also would the database for Crawley council show that I have a current PCN for Worthing and this go against me when contesting it? I haven't put an appeal in yet and am unsure how to go about it with the other ticket still open and whether there's even grounds for me to contest the Crawley PCN.
This has made me so afraid to park on double yellow lines now as I appreciate the hospital one was totally my fault as I was late and with the bad weather I didn't feel I had a choice on grounds of safety, but I contested it as originally I couldn't understand why I'd been issued the ticket from the written statement when I wasn't even in a restricted bay until I looked up the codes.
Now I don't know what to do with regard to the Crawley ticket. If anyone is able to offer help and advice it would be very much appreciated!

(I’ve edited this to remove the Worthing PCN as I didn’t realise they needed to be separate posts, sorry)

This post has been edited by Tanzanyte: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 12:10
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 15:01
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 12:28) *
Ah, not noticed that West Sussex are the relevant authority in both.
Could be interesting :0



posted part of a draft done a while back on the Worthing thread. This document might give an understanding of what they are doing. albeit ultra vires

https://www.adur-worthing.gov.uk/media/media,107175,en.pdf



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hcandersen
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 15:56
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To which we can now add a complaint to WSCC that their ‘agent’ authority has an unlawful enforcment policy in respect of those matters for which the county council are the enforcement authority and the district council is, presumably, acting under some form of delegated power or agency agreement.

Who agreed this within the county council?
How many other ‘agents’ are operating similar unlawful policies?
Given the sensitivity of this matter and the disrepute into which it could bring all councils concerned, how and by when do the county council intend to ensure that their ‘agents’ are acting lawfully?
How do the county council intend to reimburse owners and, where the payer of the penalty was not the owner, the payers of penalties?

But first things first. Let’s ensure this is the current policy (@PMB, I’m not suggesting your good spot is not the document, it’s just that I like them to present it!).

(it’s now done but not in the context of this PCN so nothing in this thread is contingent upon the speed with which they reply, which hopefully would be in time to make formal reps if necessary).
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stamfordman
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 16:14
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Looking at the eventual climbdown letter from one of the two cases from last year, it seems they were going to a adopt a policy of issuing a PCN and then cancelling it when challenged, the first time. This just adds to the illegal behaviour of the council as we know many people won't challenge. So - the OP here should see it cancelled on challenge.

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DancingDad
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 16:41
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As we spoke of at the time, that climbdown letter totally misses that they cannot enforce against BB holders due to proximity to junctions.
Neither the BB booklet nor the Highway Code gives them the authority, only enacted legislation that applies under TMA2004 does that and obstruction is not one of those.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 16:57
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 17:41) *
As we spoke of at the time, that climbdown letter totally misses that they cannot enforce against BB holders due to proximity to junctions.
Neither the BB booklet nor the Highway Code gives them the authority, only enacted legislation that applies under TMA2004 does that and obstruction is not one of those.



Indeed. But the OP should be reassured that this will probably have a quick cancellation.
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Tanzanyte
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 17:02
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I waited before contesting just to check on my computer rather than a phone to see if it differed I.e there were pictures there. Still nothing. It’s so odd as it doesn’t even say what I’ve done, time of incident etc. Just gives me the option to pay the £35 or write in a box why I’m contesting it, along with boxes for my personal details. I’ve written what DancingDad advised so will let you know the outcome. I have a feeling they will decline it given they did that Fossoux’s appeal to begin with and the threatening stance they took when they finally cancelled, scaring you into believeing it won’t work next time.
They are on to a huge racket as most of my disabled friends would pay up and wouldn’t think to look online for places such as this where you have the knowledge to help.
Anyways thank you so much for all of your input so far. I would be totally lost on this otherwise.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 19:54
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QUOTE (Tanzanyte @ Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 17:02) *
I waited before contesting just to check on my computer rather than a phone to see if it differed I.e there were pictures there. Still nothing. It’s so odd as it doesn’t even say what I’ve done, time of incident etc. Just gives me the option to pay the £35 or write in a box why I’m contesting it, along with boxes for my personal details. I’ve written what DancingDad advised so will let you know the outcome. I have a feeling they will decline it given they did that Fossoux’s appeal to begin with and the threatening stance they took when they finally cancelled, scaring you into believeing it won’t work next time.
They are on to a huge racket as most of my disabled friends would pay up and wouldn’t think to look online for places such as this where you have the knowledge to help.
Anyways thank you so much for all of your input so far. I would be totally lost on this otherwise.


your right in that it is a scam and IMO someone should lose their job over it.Tell all your friends about us. councils acting as though they are above the law riles us all


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hcandersen
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 22:00
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Have no fear, I’ve got 25+ years’ experience dealing with the monster (in senior positions) and I’ve got time on my hands.

I’ve started the ball rolling with Worthing just to get them to confirm their policy.

Then, depending on their response, and with this letter in support, I intend to go for their, WSCC’s and any other so-called agent’s jugular.

See the posted policy. Parking Associates are a firm of consultants (with whom I’ve had some dealings, but that was in another life) and everyone seems to have bought their cut and paste ‘policy’, grammatical faults ‘n all.

Stand back, this could get messy.

But this is off-piste, we still have to deal with your PCNs.
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cp8759
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 22:01
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This seems ripe for a formal complaint. stamfordman, could you PM me a link to the rest of that letter?


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stamfordman
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 22:09
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 23:01) *
This seems ripe for a formal complaint. stamfordman, could you PM me a link to the rest of that letter?



in post #58 in this one:


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117478
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 22:55
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 23:00) *
Have no fear, I’ve got 25+ years’ experience dealing with the monster (in senior positions) and I’ve got time on my hands.

I’ve started the ball rolling with Worthing just to get them to confirm their policy.

Then, depending on their response, and with this letter in support, I intend to go for their, WSCC’s and any other so-called agent’s jugular.

See the posted policy. Parking Associates are a firm of consultants (with whom I’ve had some dealings, but that was in another life) and everyone seems to have bought their cut and paste ‘policy’, grammatical faults ‘n all.

Stand back, this could get messy.

But this is off-piste, we still have to deal with your PCNs.


from what I see the issue of the PCN's is the easy bit, but please don't keep the fun bit off forum. I know enough to stand back and watch HCA in this instance


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Tanzanyte
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 13:16
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Wow, you’re all amazing!
I, and I’m sure countless others, really appreciate you fighting for things to be changed.

I will definitely mention you all on here. One of my friends has had so many tickets but she does try and contest them as it’s for parking outside her own flat when someone else has taken her assigned by reg plate disabled space she has no choice but to park next to it on the double yellow lines and inevitably gets a ticket.
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Tanzanyte
post Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 10:54
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Hi,

I’ve just had a response and the PCN is upheld. Just attaching the documentation so hope it’s attached ok.
I’d be really grateful to know the best tack to go from here?
Many thanks,


Sorry, edited this as realised I'd uploaded the response in a rush and selected the one without my details removed. Whilst I have no issue with this currently as you're all here providing a huge amount of help. I hope you'll understand that as the post stays up and others may need to refer to it I'd rather not have personal details available to all years later.

This post has been edited by Tanzanyte: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 20:52
Attached File(s)
Attached File  B0144044_copy.pdf ( 986.48K ) Number of downloads: 36
 
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localdriver
post Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 11:33
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In that council's letter, "a Blue Badge does not entitle you to park on yellow lines opposite or within 10 metres (32 feet) of a junction, except in an authorised parking space" is wrong.

The restriction on parking opposite or within 10 meters of a junction is a 'Do Not', in both the Highway Code and the Blue Badge Scheme booklet, not a 'Must Not', it may be considered to be an obstruction and dealt with as such, but is not an '01 Parking Contravention'.




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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 12:56
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Will draft something tomorrow this is bordering on criminal


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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 13:03
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There would only be obstructive parking if that car park took coaches, which it doesn't.

This lot are acting illegally and this issue should be put to bed once and for all else other BB holders are going to be targeted.

At the next stage, if the Council issues a DNC statement, I would go for costs on the issues identified by members, in that the Council has acted illegally and been wholly unreasonable plus the agency issues suggested by hca.

I would also play the Equality Act card---forget they quote the Highway Code and BB Booklet (which have no legal meaning) take them to task on their duties under the disability and equality legislation which does have the force of law behind it.

Mick
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hcandersen
post Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 13:25
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I’d reply along these lines:

PCN ****.

Thank you for your letter dated *** rejecting my challenge against the above in respect of which I make the following comments:


After careful consideration of the information you provided, we have found insufficient grounds for cancelling this PCN.’

This is because you’ve not looked in the correct place.

Your vehicle was parked in an area clearly marked as a restricted parking area by the presence of double yellow lines. I have enclosed evidence of this.

Correct.

The signage and road markings comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD).It is the driver’s responsibility to ensure they have checked all signage in the area, and parked legally and correctly, before leaving their vehicle.

Absolutely, I couldn’t agree more.

Double yellow lines mean no waiting at any time unless there are signs that specifically indicate seasonal restrictions

I take your point, but you are incorrect. DYL indicate 24/7 restrictions without the opportunity to amend (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made, item 1 Part 4 applies.). There are numerous exemptions of which displaying a valid Blue Badge in the prescribed position is one. I shall return to this point.

You were parked opposite the junction with the NCP car park. Parking in such a location can cause a danger to other road users as it can force traffic onto the opposite side of the carriageway and into the path of oncoming vehicles. It can also cause problems for larger vehicles trying to manoeuvre around your vehicle.

You could be correct. If the opportunity arose I could discuss this with you, however, it has no bearing on the PCN or the scope of your powers.

Please also note that you may not park on double yellow lines in a car park either (such as Crawley Hospital and Crawley Library).

A non sequitur (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/non-sequitur)

The ‘Blue Badge Scheme: - Rights and Responsibilities’ booklet, which you would have received with your Blue Badge, states that the Blue Badge is not a licence to park anywhere. Like other road users, you must obey the rules of the road, as laid out in the Highway Code

Absolutely.

Double yellow lines mean no waiting at any time unless there are signs that specifically indicate seasonal restrictions. You may stop to load or unload (unless there are also loading restrictions) or while passengers board or alight. Your vehicle was first seen at 14:27 and observed until 15:04 when the PCN was issued. There was no sign of loading or of anybody getting in or out of your vehicle during this time.

Correct as regards loading; incorrect as regards the meaning of DYL - I have given you the legal reference above.

Whilst you are allowed to park on the highway on single or double yellow lines for up to three hours if you correctly display a Blue Badge, (but not where there are restrictions on loading or unloading), a Blue Badge does not entitle you to park on yellow lines opposite or within 10 metres (32 feet) of a junction, except in an authorised parking space. In fact, pages 21 and 22 of the Blue Badge booklet specifically state:

They may do, but the point is moot. Your authority’s powers are defined and circumscribed by legislation, not this or any other booklet. Given that the Secretary of State’s statutory guidance to enforcement authorities (which even though you are not an EA but purport to operate under some agency arrangement with WSCC is binding on you) requires them to train their staff inter alia in the legislative framework within which they work, I assume you are familiar with the Traffic Management Act, in particular para. 4(2)(b) of Part 1 to Schedule 7 which is the only basis on which you may issue a PCN in the circumstances of this case.

I have not managed to discover pages 21 and 22 of the Blue Badge booklet listed.

The Blue Badge is not a licence to park anywhere. If you park where it would cause an obstruction or danger to other road users you could be fined or receive a Penalty Charge Notice or have your vehicle removed by the Police.

Fined - yes, by the courts.
Vehicle removed by the police - yes.
Receive a PCN - only in your world but not according to law.


You now have the following choices:
To cancel the PCN by return or to continue to pursue the owner.

I would not suggest the latter until you have sought internal advice from the council’s legal and public relations officers. I would also suggest you copy in the equivalent officers at WSCC.

‘Council unlawfully penalise disabled drivers’ would be an attractive headline in the County Times I would imagine.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 13:25
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 13:51
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 14:25) *
I’d reply along these lines:

PCN ****.

Thank you for your letter dated *** rejecting my challenge against the above in respect of which I make the following comments:


After careful consideration of the information you provided, we have found insufficient grounds for cancelling this PCN.’

This is because you’ve not looked in the correct place.

Your vehicle was parked in an area clearly marked as a restricted parking area by the presence of double yellow lines. I have enclosed evidence of this.

Correct.

The signage and road markings comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD).It is the driver’s responsibility to ensure they have checked all signage in the area, and parked legally and correctly, before leaving their vehicle.

Absolutely, I couldn’t agree more.

Double yellow lines mean no waiting at any time unless there are signs that specifically indicate seasonal restrictions

I take your point, but you are incorrect. DYL indicate 24/7 restrictions without the opportunity to amend (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made, item 1 Part 4 applies.). There are numerous exemptions of which displaying a valid Blue Badge in the prescribed position is one. I shall return to this point.

You were parked opposite the junction with the NCP car park. Parking in such a location can cause a danger to other road users as it can force traffic onto the opposite side of the carriageway and into the path of oncoming vehicles. It can also cause problems for larger vehicles trying to manoeuvre around your vehicle.

You could be correct. If the opportunity arose I could discuss this with you, however, it has no bearing on the PCN or the scope of your powers.

Please also note that you may not park on double yellow lines in a car park either (such as Crawley Hospital and Crawley Library).

A non sequitur (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/non-sequitur)

The ‘Blue Badge Scheme: - Rights and Responsibilities’ booklet, which you would have received with your Blue Badge, states that the Blue Badge is not a licence to park anywhere. Like other road users, you must obey the rules of the road, as laid out in the Highway Code

Absolutely.

Double yellow lines mean no waiting at any time unless there are signs that specifically indicate seasonal restrictions. You may stop to load or unload (unless there are also loading restrictions) or while passengers board or alight. Your vehicle was first seen at 14:27 and observed until 15:04 when the PCN was issued. There was no sign of loading or of anybody getting in or out of your vehicle during this time.

Correct as regards loading; incorrect as regards the meaning of DYL - I have given you the legal reference above.

Whilst you are allowed to park on the highway on single or double yellow lines for up to three hours if you correctly display a Blue Badge, (but not where there are restrictions on loading or unloading), a Blue Badge does not entitle you to park on yellow lines opposite or within 10 metres (32 feet) of a junction, except in an authorised parking space. In fact, pages 21 and 22 of the Blue Badge booklet specifically state:

They may do, but the point is moot. Your authority’s powers are defined and circumscribed by legislation, not this or any other booklet. Given that the Secretary of State’s statutory guidance to enforcement authorities (which even though you are not an EA but purport to operate under some agency arrangement with WSCC is binding on you) requires them to train their staff inter alia in the legislative framework within which they work, I assume you are familiar with the Traffic Management Act, in particular para. 4(2)(b) of Part 1 to Schedule 7 which is the only basis on which you may issue a PCN in the circumstances of this case.

I have not managed to discover pages 21 and 22 of the Blue Badge booklet listed.

The Blue Badge is not a licence to park anywhere. If you park where it would cause an obstruction or danger to other road users you could be fined or receive a Penalty Charge Notice or have your vehicle removed by the Police.

Fined - yes, by the courts.
Vehicle removed by the police - yes.
Receive a PCN - only in your world but not according to law.


You now have the following choices:
To cancel the PCN by return or to continue to pursue the owner.

I would not suggest the latter until you have sought internal advice from the council’s legal and public relations officers. I would also suggest you copy in the equivalent officers at WSCC.

‘Council unlawfully penalise disabled drivers’ would be an attractive headline in the County Times I would imagine.


Far more subdued than I expected HCA


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hcandersen
post Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 14:49
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I’m on holiday, the sun’s got to me biggrin.gif
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Tanzanyte
post Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 21:01
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Thanks HCA. I feel terrible you're having to respond whilst you're on holiday.
I'm presuming I email the response to Crawley Parking services? There isn't anything I can see on the letter that allows you to appeal further until the notice to owner.
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