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PCN Advise Please
bwar
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 08:24
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Hi All,

I recently received a PCN for £120 or £70 if paid within 14 days for being parked in a private car park for less than 5 minutes. After reading through some posts on here I am inclined to ignore it however I worry that I will end up in court and have to pay even more than the £120 and given that its near Christmas I could do without that kind of expense. So I am after some advice from you guys please. I will give more information below on what happened.

I was in a rush at work and was desperate for something to eat so went to my local Tesco Express. All the Tesco labelled bays were full so I parked in a space labelled on the floor as 32 so it was for the local flats. There was nothing obvious like "DO NOT PARK HERE" so I parked up, ran into Tesco's, was no more than 5 minutes and came back to a ticket, I literally couldn't believe it. I was even more shocked at the cost as I thought parking tickets were usually about £50 reduced to £30 or £35. Given that the PCN was timed at 12:57 I can't help but think its the only time they monitor it as they know there will be money made as its busy at lunchtime and people want to go to the local food shops that are there. The PCN is from a company called AM Secure Services Ltd.

I contacted the Citizens Advice Bureau who have advised me to appeal based on how much they want me to pay. I said to them that their signs are pathetically small and hardly noticeable if like me you were in a rush.

So I would like to just ignore it and forget it but I am a natural born worrier, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
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post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 08:24
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Basfordlad
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 08:29
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You can ignore. They won't take you to court. So worry not
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DBC
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 08:38
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Forget what Citizens Advice told you. They are rubbish when it comes to private parking tickets.
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bwar
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 09:17
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QUOTE (Basfordlad @ Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 08:29) *
You can ignore. They won't take you to court. So worry not


OK then thanks - why wont they though? Purely because they wont be bothered?
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DBC
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 09:20
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And they would't win. In law the landowner can only claim for the actual material loss that's been suffered, not some arbitrary sum plucked out of the air.In you case that loss amounts to nothing. If they try to claim any higher amount that would be considered a penalty, which is not allowed in civil law.
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Broadsword
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 09:22
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QUOTE (bwar @ Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 08:24) *
I recently received a PCN for £120 or £70 if paid within 14 days for being parked in a private car park for less than 5 minutes.


If you received the ticket on or after 1st October 2012 then the £120 PCN exceeds the BPA CoP £100 threshold in the new CoP as follows:

19.5 If the parking charge that the driver is being asked to pay is for a breach of contract or act of trespass, this charge must be based on the genuine pre-estimate of loss that you suffer. We would not expect this amount to be more than £100. If the charge is more than this, operators must be able to justify the amount in advance.

Why not email the DVLA, attach a copy of the PCN showing the £120 charge and complain that this is a) an unlawful penalty charge because 5 minutes cannot possibly equate to £120 in damages b) £120, unless pre approved by the BPA is a breach of B 19.5 of the CoP and therefore c) the company, if they are in breach of the CoP cannot demonstrate 'reasonable cause' and the DVLA cannot legally release the registered keeper data.
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Lynnzer
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 09:30
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I would love to be on the end of a court summons for this one.
They would have a hard time telling the judge why they aren't following the British Parking Association's Code of Practice.
It puts an obligation on them to charge no more than £100 except in cases that have to be agreed in advance.

Quite apart from that, the likelihood of them going to court and winning their case is absolutely nil.

Now, you can either completely ignore all the usual threats that will come streaming in, or you can bite back.
The big bite-back would be to email the DVLA and advise that this company is operating outside of their Associations Code of Practice so could they firstly prevent them from obtaining you personal details,m and consider removing them from their data access list.
You'll need to send a copy of the ticket, both sides if it's 2 sided. If you also have any pictures of their signs they may be useful too but let us see what they are first.


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Concrete Jungle
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 09:42
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Bite the PPC back by complaining to the DVLA. Ignore the speculative invoice containing unenforceable penalty clauses you have received. Keep everything you get together in a safe place and ignore. Did you know that last year in the region of roughly 600,000 speculative invoices containing unenforceable penalty clauses went unpaid. Guess how many went to court!

Hundreds of thousands, Tens of thousands, thousands, hundreds, or tens. How many of the cases that went to court did the PPC's win? 100%, 80%, 75%, 60% or 50%?


--------------------
VCS v Ibbotson
Excel v Hetherington - Jakeman
ParkingEye v Riyaz Patel
Mayhook v National Car Parks & Nigel Barrington - Fuller

When posting on pepipoo do not reveal any information that may enable private parking companies to identify you. They DO trawl this forum. Redact your name, address, pcn number, date of alleged contravention, date on speculative invoice, vehicle reg, vehicle picture, time you allegedly entered car park, time you allegedly left car park, time limit on the car park, the amount of time you allegedly overstay and the address / location of the car park. Also redact any barcodes or QR codes (if present)
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bama
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 10:31
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QUOTE (Broadsword @ Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 09:22) *
QUOTE (bwar @ Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 08:24) *
I recently received a PCN for £120 or £70 if paid within 14 days for being parked in a private car park for less than 5 minutes.


If you received the ticket on or after 1st October 2012 then the £120 PCN exceeds the BPA CoP £100 threshold in the new CoP as follows:

19.5 If the parking charge that the driver is being asked to pay is for a breach of contract or act of trespass, this charge must be based on the genuine pre-estimate of loss that you suffer. We would not expect this amount to be more than £100. If the charge is more than this, operators must be able to justify the amount in advance.

Why not email the DVLA, attach a copy of the PCN showing the £120 charge and complain that this is a) an unlawful penalty charge because 5 minutes cannot possibly equate to £120 in damages b) £120, unless pre approved by the BPA is a breach of B 19.5 of the CoP and therefore c) the company, if they are in breach of the CoP cannot demonstrate 'reasonable cause' and the DVLA cannot legally release the registered keeper data.


very good advice indeed from broadsword.

I fully endorse and strongly recommend it.


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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bwar
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 11:27
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QUOTE (Broadsword @ Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 09:22) *
QUOTE (bwar @ Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 08:24) *
I recently received a PCN for £120 or £70 if paid within 14 days for being parked in a private car park for less than 5 minutes.


If you received the ticket on or after 1st October 2012 then the £120 PCN exceeds the BPA CoP £100 threshold in the new CoP as follows:

19.5 If the parking charge that the driver is being asked to pay is for a breach of contract or act of trespass, this charge must be based on the genuine pre-estimate of loss that you suffer. We would not expect this amount to be more than £100. If the charge is more than this, operators must be able to justify the amount in advance.

Why not email the DVLA, attach a copy of the PCN showing the £120 charge and complain that this is a) an unlawful penalty charge because 5 minutes cannot possibly equate to £120 in damages b) £120, unless pre approved by the BPA is a breach of B 19.5 of the CoP and therefore c) the company, if they are in breach of the CoP cannot demonstrate 'reasonable cause' and the DVLA cannot legally release the registered keeper data.


Thanks very much for this - I will get an email sent to them now then smile.gif
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bwar
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 11:39
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This is the PCN I received
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prosnap
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 11:58
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The judge in a recent County court case ruled that parking companies are simply contractors and have no legal right to claim money from car park users. This basic principle applies to every company and every ticket.

Obviously, parking companies don't want you to know that!

Out of the 1.8 million private parking invoices issued last year only 49 were heard before a court and the parking companies lost half of those.


--------------------
The word "gullible" isn't in the dictionary
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Lynnzer
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 12:47
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I can't see them listed as a member of BPA


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Touranman
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 13:02
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............and even if I was thinking of paying (which I never would) I would most certainly not be giving them the security numbers off the back of my card.

Ken
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SchoolRunMum
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 16:36
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QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 12:47) *





IN WHICH CASE DON'T APPEAL, DO NOTHING, bwar! Sorry to shout but a non AOS memeber cannot get your data from the DVLA!
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Broadsword
post Tue, 30 Oct 2012 - 17:53
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The BPA AOS list isn't always 100% accurate but the companies website is adorned with BPA AOS logos

http://www.am-secureltd.co.uk/

I would therefore assume that they are members and whack in a complaint to the DVLA. If it turns out they are not members then the DVLA/BPA cartel will report them to TSD as quick as a flash so it's a win/win situation.
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bwar
post Wed, 31 Oct 2012 - 00:39
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Thanks for everything guys, really appreciate all the feedback and advise. What a quality forum smile.gif

My complaint is into the DVLA, I'll keep this post updated with my progress!
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Broadsword
post Wed, 31 Oct 2012 - 09:07
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Just rang AM Secure Ltd and the helpful lady who answered the phone thinks that they are indeed members of the BPA AOS.
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bwar
post Wed, 31 Oct 2012 - 09:49
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QUOTE (Broadsword @ Wed, 31 Oct 2012 - 09:07) *
Just rang AM Secure Ltd and the helpful lady who answered the phone thinks that they are indeed members of the BPA AOS.


"thinks" lol how professional is that!!!!
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instrumentsofjoy
post Wed, 31 Oct 2012 - 16:22
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QUOTE (Broadsword @ Wed, 31 Oct 2012 - 09:07) *
Just rang AM Secure Ltd and the helpful lady who answered the phone thinks that they are indeed members of the BPA AOS.


They aren't according to BPA.

"AM Secure Services are not a member of the BPA or AOS so I have passed your email onto the correct team to take action regarding the misuse of our logo"

DVLA and Trading standards - quickly.

Serious offence.

This post has been edited by instrumentsofjoy: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 - 16:23
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