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Letter before claim from VCS, What do I do next?
Bashboush
post Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 01:27
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Hi All
Help would be appreciated.
I have been searching to see what to do next but I need some help.

The story as follows.

Registered keeper was not the driver.
Driver parked at a Lidl car park which is part of a retail park shared with other shops/ Gym...etc.
No notice was left on the windscreen. Just a card saying To expect a contact from some company. Did not take note of it and thought it was some kind of spam as it asked to call a number for more details.
Anyway some time later received communication from VCS and NTK which ignored.
Now the Registered keeper received a letter before claim.
Questions.
Can the registered keeper send a letter saying that she was not the driver and that the letter has been passed to the driver (without disclosing driver details) and ask them to stop contacting the registered keeper as the contract with the driver,? Or is it too late now the letter before claim.

The pictures sent are not very clear. As it was night and they are on their website.

https://ibb.co/zVtVzRL
https://ibb.co/cvfGFNB
https://ibb.co/bRfpzLz
https://ibb.co/BTWLfHk
https://ibb.co/stWph4R
https://ibb.co/FhtG86q


This post has been edited by Bashboush: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 01:44
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Jlc
post Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 08:04
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Do you still have the NTK?

As they may have the right to pursue the keeper.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Bashboush
post Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 08:37
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 08:04) *
Do you still have the NTK?

As they may have the right to pursue the keeper.

I am not sure. Might do. I’ll look for it and post it
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Jlc
post Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 08:41
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If they have complied (Substantively) then they can pursue you (for the driver's unpaid parking charges).

If not, they'll still pursue you anyway! (On the basis the keeper was driving)

If the keeper can provide 'proof' that they weren't driving (e.g. flights out of the country) then they may stop.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Bashboush
post Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 08:41
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This the sign

https://ibb.co/C9cgT6k

This post has been edited by Bashboush: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 09:07
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ostell
post Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 09:47
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If there was that notice on the windscreen then it is not a valid Notice to Driver and the Notice to Keeper has to be received within 14 days. Was it? If not then no keeper liability under POFA i


That sign is ridiculous. How can you agree on entering the car park as you haven't yet been able to read it while driving by.

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 09:54
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Bashboush
post Sat, 8 Feb 2020 - 23:51
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 08:04) *
Do you still have the NTK?

As they may have the right to pursue the keeper.


I’m afraid I can’t find the NTK

But I found the subsequent demand for payments

https://ibb.co/ZfYpY5n
https://ibb.co/dDdjjdW
https://ibb.co/bbH4hb5
https://ibb.co/6WLg6zh
https://ibb.co/hBRgHKJ

I’m the first one they frankly saying that the driver of the above vehicle is liable for the parking charge

And all theses demands are after the NTK. So can I just send them a letter saying that I have passed the details to the driver and don’t contact me again?
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Jlc
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 09:40
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QUOTE (Bashboush @ Sat, 8 Feb 2020 - 23:51) *
So can I just send them a letter saying that I have passed the details to the driver and don’t contact me again?

Of course but they'll still sue you.

The NtK is critical to see whether they have complied - my recollection is that they were substantively compliant.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 09:42


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 11:54
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My recollection is that they dont claim any rights under POFA. They just state theyll assume the keeper was the driver.
So, we need to see the NtK

OP - if you dont have it, send VCS a SAR. Google the term if needed. No need for a template either.
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Bashboush
post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 16:13
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 11:54) *
My recollection is that they dont claim any rights under POFA. They just state theyll assume the keeper was the driver.
So, we need to see the NtK

OP - if you dont have it, send VCS a SAR. Google the term if needed. No need for a template either.


I finally managed to find the NTK.
Very similar wording to the subsequent demand for payments.
It’s requesting the RK to notify them of the driver, without mentioning it is not required by Law!

https://ibb.co/YP6nWVH
https://ibb.co/3CtXspg

This post has been edited by Bashboush: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 16:15
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 16:21
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Of course they dont say you dont HAVE to tell them the name and address> WHy would they do that? Then you might not tell them

OK so they are trying to hold the keeper liable
HOWEVER

Read the "please be warned" section. Notice that it INCORRECTLY states the time period? The period is 28 days beginning the day after the notice is GIVEN, NOT the date the notice is posted. GIVEN means "received"
As such it fails POFA. At the very minimum it does you out of 2 days to respond, at worst 4 or 5.
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Bashboush
post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 16:51
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 16:21) *
Of course they dont say you dont HAVE to tell them the name and address> WHy would they do that? Then you might not tell them

OK so they are trying to hold the keeper liable
HOWEVER

Read the "please be warned" section. Notice that it INCORRECTLY states the time period? The period is 28 days beginning the day after the notice is GIVEN, NOT the date the notice is posted. GIVEN means "received"
As such it fails POFA. At the very minimum it does you out of 2 days to respond, at worst 4 or 5.


Ok. I read that. But how would that (fails POFA) help my case as the RK received letter before claim?
They say that they have the right to recover from the RK any unpaid balance ..,,etc.

Can I just send them a letter saying that I passed the details to the driver and it is not my responsibility to make the driver communicate with you?!
I know they won’t say it. But u thought to be compliant they need to advice that. ! Or am I mistaken on this point?!

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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 16:55
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They can only clami from teh KEEPER if they follow POFA2012 schedule 4 para 9
Have you read it?

If they dont, they can ONLY recover from the driver. Whom they dont know.
What other threads have you read? You MUST understand Keeper liabiltiy. MUST. This is not optional.

Compliant with what? There is nothing, I repeat NOTHING, that means they have to tell you you are not *required* to disclose the drivers details.
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ostell
post Tue, 11 Feb 2020 - 08:39
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To add to the list of fails there is also no period of parking
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Bashboush
post Tue, 11 Feb 2020 - 23:34
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 16:55) *
They can only clami from teh KEEPER if they follow POFA2012 schedule 4 para 9
Have you read it?

If they dont, they can ONLY recover from the driver. Whom they dont know.
What other threads have you read? You MUST understand Keeper liabiltiy. MUST. This is not optional.

Compliant with what? There is nothing, I repeat NOTHING, that means they have to tell you you are not *required* to disclose the drivers details.

Thank you for the explanation. I’ve read schedule 4. and I understood that the 28 day period start from the day after the notice been posted. So in my case the posting day is 28/10/2019. So the 28 day period starts from 29th or 30th?


In the schedule (quote: f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—) does the NT has specifically state given or received? Is it because the issue date might not be the same as the posting date? Sorry for the silly question.

Shall I draft a letter saying that they are not compliant with POFA 2012 schedule 5 paragraph 9!?
As well as not specified the length of time.
And ask them to send me a complaint letter with all the evidence they intend to use in court?
Do I stat that I’m responding to LBC as RK. And confirm I was not the driver at the PCN time?
Any templates please.

I
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The Rookie
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 04:57
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POFA
QUOTE
(4)The right under this paragraph may only be exercised after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day on which the notice to keeper is given

The Notice to keeper can't (in plain English) be given when it's printed or posted only when it's served (plops on the door mat), so how you came to the conclusion it starts when it's PRINTED (posted is a day you can't know anyway) is beyond me!

A Notice printed on the 28th could be posted that day, the next day, or if there is a weekend the next Monday (or any time thereafter in fact), if first class post is used it's presumed served in 2 working days from the day it can be evidenced as posted. Most PPC don't use the PO or first class post (for cost reasons) and cannot evidence date of posting anyway, so there can be no presumption on the date of service ('given') at all and that date is the date it plops on the mat, no other day.

As such the warning is inherently wrong, and probably robs close to 7 days (in most PPC cases) from the recipient.

Appeal is the simple 'bogoff' for non PoFA compliance you'll have read in many other threads.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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Bashboush
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 08:54
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 04:57) *
POFA
QUOTE
(4)The right under this paragraph may only be exercised after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day on which the notice to keeper is given

The Notice to keeper can't (in plain English) be given when it's printed or posted only when it's served (plops on the door mat), so how you came to the conclusion it starts when it's PRINTED (posted is a day you can't know anyway) is beyond me!

A Notice printed on the 28th could be posted that day, the next day, or if there is a weekend the next Monday (or any time thereafter in fact), if first class post is used it's presumed served in 2 working days from the day it can be evidenced as posted. Most PPC don't use the PO or first class post (for cost reasons) and cannot evidence date of posting anyway, so there can be no presumption on the date of service ('given') at all and that date is the date it plops on the mat, no other day.

As such the warning is inherently wrong, and probably robs close to 7 days (in most PPC cases) from the recipient.

Appeal is the simple 'bogoff' for non PoFA compliance you'll have read in many other threads.


Thank you for the explanation. The reason for assuming the posting date is because they have documented (posted) next to the issue date and I assume they will be able to prove it?! But from what you saying they can not?
This leads me to the conclusion that they try to make me think that and I fallen into that !
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The Rookie
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 09:37
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There are mechanisms by which they could prove date of posting but it would cost them money, so guess what......

First class franked (which they could use to evidence date of posting and presumption of delivery) is 61p, a bulk non PO provider costs typically 47p.

You don't seem to have yet gripped the fact that the whole industry is a quasi legal scam (as in the operation isn't inherently illegal but most claims have no legal basis) as such why would they not use a few more quasi legalities to help the uninformed along in deciding to pay.......

QUOTE
This leads me to the conclusion that they try to make me think that and I fallen into that !
Nearly, not quite!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 09:58
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Also in case all the above gets lost - they MUSt state the time period correctly, and they did not. Even if they posted it the same day they said they did, theyre nicking at leqast 2 days and that is not right.
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Bashboush
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 14:26
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Shall I send this ?

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your letter of xxxx.


My reference: XXXXXXXXX


Wit reference to your Letter Before Claim. I note you have not provided me with the full details of the claim you make i.e. the timings of alleged charge. You have not photographic evidence of the car entering and exiting the car park or how long the car was actually parked in. please provide clear details.


Nor does your Letter Before Claim contain any mention of what evidence your client intends to rely on, or enclose copies of such evidence.


I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

1. what the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)
2. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
3. a copy of any alleged contract with the driver
4. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
5. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
6. A detailed explanation of costs that you have added on to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.


The alleged debt is disputed and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.

This Letter Before Claim on the part of your client is a clear breach of its pre-action obligations set out in the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct, with which your legal department must surely be familiar with. As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction binds all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time.

Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction.



I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6© of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).

If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and © and 16.


Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.

Yours faithfully etc.


The reason I’m asking because the latest communication I received from them is letter before claim?!

Or do I need to focus on the NTK being not compliant although it has been few months ago and before LBC!?

Please don’t be frustrated with me. I admit I am lost in all this and I’m trying my best to follow. I’m really stressed with all this.

QUOTE (Bashboush @ Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 14:20) *
Shall I send this ?

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your letter of xxxx.


My reference: XXXXXXXXX


Wit reference to your Letter Before Claim. I note you have not provided me with the full details of the claim you make i.e. the timings of alleged charge. You have not photographic evidence of the car entering and exiting the car park or how long the car was actually parked in. please provide clear details.


Nor does your Letter Before Claim contain any mention of what evidence your client intends to rely on, or enclose copies of such evidence.


I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

1. what the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)
2. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
3. a copy of any alleged contract with the driver
4. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
5. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
6. A detailed explanation of costs that you have added on to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.


The alleged debt is disputed and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.

This Letter Before Claim on the part of your client is a clear breach of its pre-action obligations set out in the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct, with which your legal department must surely be familiar with. As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction binds all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time.

Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction.



I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6© of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).

If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and © and 16.


Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.

Yours faithfully etc.


The reason I’m asking because the latest communication I received from them is letter before claim?!

Or do I need to focus on the NTK being not compliant although it has been few months ago and before LBC!?

Please don’t be frustrated with me. I admit I am lost in all this and I’m trying my best to follow. I’m really stressed with all this.




In regards to your previous NTK you have sent, I draw your attention that it is not compliant with P OFA2012 schedule 4 para 9 and hence you have no legal right to pursue the keeper as a result.
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