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Another Oxford Rd - Manchester PCN
farenheit
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 12:46
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Having had a read through it seems like it's a common theme for a bus lane PCN in Manchester. Seems like their graduates did a good job with their strategic sign placements.!
For me, i was visiting Manchester from Birmingham, went to Trafford centre and left there to go to wilmslow rd (or whatever its called) for a bite on the may bank holiday weekend (Sunday).
Yesterday 15th May received this notice.
Am i right in thinking i should just pay it and be done with it?
For the record im really quite good with signs/bus lanes etc but this one got me when i turned into this road from god knows which road. Sorry not familiar with the place.
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post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 12:46
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cp8759
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 14:46
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QUOTE (farenheit @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 13:46) *
Am i right in thinking i should just pay it and be done with it?

Why on earth would you do that? The signage at this location has previously been described as "hopeless" by the tribunal, they have added another sign, but that just makes it look like you're not allowed to drive in the cycle lane to the left. There is still no central island and no road markings, therefore the signage is inadequate IMO.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 16:12
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 15:46) *
QUOTE (farenheit @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 13:46) *
Am i right in thinking i should just pay it and be done with it?

Why on earth would you do that? The signage at this location has previously been described as "hopeless" by the tribunal, they have added another sign, but that just makes it look like you're not allowed to drive in the cycle lane to the left. There is still no central island and no road markings, therefore the signage is inadequate IMO.


I tend to agree, but would like to see photos before comment on the new signage
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farenheit
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 17:32
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Not sure we’re im gonna source more pics.
I will draft a letter tomorrow regarding signage and will post here.
Is it worth including the fact that they stated bus lane but no where does it state bus lane or have a thick white line separating the lanes?
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 18:47
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QUOTE (farenheit @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 18:32) *
Not sure we’re im gonna source more pics.
I will draft a letter tomorrow regarding signage and will post here.
Is it worth including the fact that they stated bus lane but no where does it state bus lane or have a thick white line separating the lanes?



Yep that is part of the signage issue,
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Incandescent
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 19:16
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It is a street restricted to buses, (and possibly taxis and bicycles) at certain times, so there is no requirement to have any thick white lines at all. PCNs, however, always use the term "bus lane", no doubt to confuse everybody ! The plain fact is that Manchester CC have installed all these restricted routes on the cheap. TPT have panned the signage, and a lot of appeals have been won, but the reality is that Manchester continue to coin it. Incidentally the old penalty for coining was hanging.
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cp8759
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 00:32
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QUOTE (farenheit @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 18:32) *
Not sure we’re im gonna source more pics.

I would start with asking the council for the video


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farenheit
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 10:52
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CODE
Dear Sir or Madam,

I submit an appeal against the alleged bus lane contravention (Penalty Charge Notice Number M…) on the grounds that this contravention did not occur due to inadequate signage.

I saw no bus Lane signs, there were no pre-warning signs, and there was nothing that gave a reasonably observant motorist warning that they are entering a bus lane.

The online council web-page states the following regarding bus lanes:

“What does a bus lane look like and when do they operate?
Bus lanes are marked with a white line and the words “Bus Lane” marked on the road. A section of broken white lines in the bus lane means it is permitted for vehicles to cross the bus lane to turn left or into an adjacent loading bay.”

As you can see in the CCTV image there is in fact, no road markings stating that the road is in fact, a bus lane. This therefore does not comply with the councils own explanation and description of what a bus lane should look like. The sign also does not declare that this as a bus lane and its placement suggests that the rules stated are in fact for the cycle lane and/or the bus stops.

In making my representations against this PCN I find I can do no better than rely on the words of the learned Adjudicator in the recent case MC00014-1801. The judgment was as follows:

“The signs at the beginning of the restriction, which are shown in the photographs, are on either side of the wide road. The sign on the offside is difficult to see and in certain traffic conditions could be obstructed by high sided vehicles on the opposite carriageway.

In any event, it would be very difficult for a driver to read the information on the exception plate, which is necessarily in small writing. The sign on the nearside is located on the far side of a cycle lane and therefore well away from the carriageway. Again, this makes the sign less visible and the information on the exception plate more difficult to read.

The exceptions include permit holders, so that it is likely that vehicles which are not buses or taxis will be using the route, giving the impression that no restriction applies. The signing would be more obvious if it was located next to the carriageway and the legend ‘bus gate’ was used on the carriageway itself. I appreciate this is not a requirement, but the Council will have in mind the need to make signing as clear as possible.

The location of the bus stop area adds to the ambiguity and taken as a whole, I am not satisfied that the signing is adequate.

I therefore allow the appeal and the penalty charge not payable.”

Taking the above into account, other road users and the adjudicators have all found the signage difficult to read. It is indeed fair to say that the signage in this location, technically correct or not, is hopeless. It gives the distinct impression of applying only to the adjacent cycle lane and not to that part of the carriageway which is intended to be restricted to buses (and other authorized vehicles) only. The signage fails to satisfy Regulation 18 of the Local Authority Traffic Orders (Procedure) Regulations 1996.

In light of this recent case and many others that seem to mirror my recollection, I ask that this PCN, M… be cancelled.

Kind Regards



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 01:32) *
QUOTE (farenheit @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 18:32) *
Not sure we’re im gonna source more pics.

I would start with asking the council for the video

How would i go about obtaining this?
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cp8759
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 10:52
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You can go for this approach, but be in no doubt that the council will reject and you will need to take this to the tribunal.

QUOTE (farenheit @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 11:52) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 01:32) *
QUOTE (farenheit @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 18:32) *
Not sure we’re im gonna source more pics.

I would start with asking the council for the video

How would i go about obtaining this?

Maybe email the council and ask?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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stamfordman
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 11:01
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Manchester videos should be at https://viewmypcn.co.uk
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farenheit
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 11:11
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 12:01) *
Manchester videos should be at https://viewmypcn.co.uk

Ive tried this link and it errors out and keeps saying try again later (since yesterday)

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 11:52) *
You can go for this approach, but be in no doubt that the council will reject and you will need to take this to the tribunal.

I understand, but im not sure what other way around there is which is why initially said i should just pay it.
They have a habit of rejecting everything, only thing it will do is buy me time. If there is any other way, please advise
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cp8759
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 11:21
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QUOTE (farenheit @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 12:11) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 11:52) *
You can go for this approach, but be in no doubt that the council will reject and you will need to take this to the tribunal.

I understand, but im not sure what other way around there is which is why initially said i should just pay it.
They have a habit of rejecting everything, only thing it will do is buy me time. If there is any other way, please advise

I'm not suggesting there is another way, you need to wait for them to reject and then appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, where you will actually get an impartial adjudicator to decide and hopefully order the council to cancel the penalty. However you need to wait for the council's rejection letter before you can appeal to the tribunal. For the appeal to the tribunal, it's probably best if you let one of us draft the appeal, and for that it would very much help if you could get hold of the video.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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farenheit
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 11:39
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 12:21) *
QUOTE (farenheit @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 12:11) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 11:52) *
You can go for this approach, but be in no doubt that the council will reject and you will need to take this to the tribunal.

I understand, but im not sure what other way around there is which is why initially said i should just pay it.
They have a habit of rejecting everything, only thing it will do is buy me time. If there is any other way, please advise

I'm not suggesting there is another way, you need to wait for them to reject and then appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, where you will actually get an impartial adjudicator to decide and hopefully order the council to cancel the penalty. However you need to wait for the council's rejection letter before you can appeal to the tribunal. For the appeal to the tribunal, it's probably best if you let one of us draft the appeal, and for that it would very much help if you could get hold of the video.

I'm gonna need help with the initial response to the council then sad.gif
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cp8759
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 13:34
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QUOTE (farenheit @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 12:39) *
I'm gonna need help with the initial response to the council then sad.gif

I'm sure one of us will help, but we need to see the video first.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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farenheit
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 14:02
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 14:34) *
QUOTE (farenheit @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 12:39) *
I'm gonna need help with the initial response to the council then sad.gif

I'm sure one of us will help, but we need to see the video first.

Thanks for that, awaiting response r.e video footage
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stamfordman
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 15:05
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QUOTE (farenheit @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 12:11) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 12:01) *
Manchester videos should be at https://viewmypcn.co.uk

Ive tried this link and it errors out and keeps saying try again later (since yesterday)



Try logging on as per viewing pics and see what's there.
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farenheit
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 19:42
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QUOTE (farenheit @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 15:02) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 14:34) *
QUOTE (farenheit @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 12:39) *
I'm gonna need help with the initial response to the council then sad.gif

I'm sure one of us will help, but we need to see the video first.

Thanks for that, awaiting response r.e video footage

Automated email response says 2 weeks to respond to my request!
Phone help were appalling!

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 16:05) *
QUOTE (farenheit @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 12:11) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 12:01) *
Manchester videos should be at https://viewmypcn.co.uk

Ive tried this link and it errors out and keeps saying try again later (since yesterday)



Try logging on as per viewing pics and see what's there.

Just the pic that was included in the original notice.

This post has been edited by farenheit: Thu, 17 May 2018 - 19:34
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farenheit
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 08:52
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Don't think ill be getting the video footage anytime soon.
I put a request in via their website last night and the automated email stated 40 days!! mad.gif
Not sure what to do from this point on..? unsure.gif
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cp8759
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 13:26
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QUOTE (farenheit @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 20:42) *
Automated email response says 2 weeks to respond to my request! ������

Paste the exact wording of this email on here please.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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farenheit
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 19:09
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1st request via email to Parking Services:

QUOTE
This is an automated response, please do not reply to this email.

Thank you for contacting Parking Services, your case is being dealt with
and you should receive a reply within 2 weeks.

Please ensure that you have quoted your Reference Number ie MC12345678 in
your email, as this will ensure your case is dealt with efficiently and
promptly. Please resend your email quoting the reference number, if this
was omitted from your original enquiry.


2nd request via web CCTV:’
QUOTE
Thank you for your request for CCTV footage made on 17 May 2018 20:52:26:1433. Any footage relevant to your request will be preserved by the Council as soon as possible.

You will be contacted using the email address provided when your request has been processed. Requests are dealt with as quickly as possible, but it sometimes takes up to 40 calendar days to process requests for CCTV footage.

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