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Parking & Property Management Ltd. - Parking charge in residential car park
emergencychimp
post Wed, 2 Aug 2017 - 20:49
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So the driver got a parking charge in a residential car park in the time from leaving the car in a visitor space and going up to grab a parking permit from an outgoing tenant.

It seems this place is employing 'civilian' type attendants. No marked car, no uniform...

Anyway, of course a valid permit was in the possession of the driver.

My initial question is, do you send the appeal before the 28 days? I've read some people send it a couple of days prior. Or is the normal procedure to wait for NTK?





This post has been edited by emergencychimp: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 - 20:50
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post Wed, 2 Aug 2017 - 20:49
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ostell
post Wed, 2 Aug 2017 - 21:53
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Yes, wait for the NTK. You were visiting an outgoing tenant? If you can get a copy of the lease which will probably give the right to park to the tenant and visitors without the need to display a permit.
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emergencychimp
post Wed, 2 Aug 2017 - 21:56
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The tenant was moving out and the keys were being collected from them. No access to lease.
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ostell
post Wed, 2 Aug 2017 - 22:00
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Who was collectiong the keys? Estate agent, friend........?
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Eljayjay
post Wed, 2 Aug 2017 - 22:17
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You could try eservices.landregistry.gov.uk for the lease.
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emergencychimp
post Wed, 2 Aug 2017 - 22:42
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Driver was collecting keys under instruction of agent.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 3 Aug 2017 - 03:49
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ASsuming not a lease or hire car, wait for the NtK

They will state there is no appeal, however you do so anyway as KEEPER of the vehicle
State the driver of the vehcile was colelcting the permit, and insufficient observation time was given to allow for this.
In addition, their notice fails POFA to hold the keeper liable for X, Y, Z reasons (look it up yourself - POFA Schedule 4, para 8) and as such only the driver is liable, wjo you choose not to name. No assumptions about the identiy of the driver can be made

Either contact the driver or cancel the charge, either way you will not make payment without a court ordering so. Of course, no payment will ever be made to a third party, you do not have your consent to pass your data to any third party, and any costs you incur are your wasted costs to bear and are of no concern of the Keeper.
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emergencychimp
post Thu, 3 Aug 2017 - 19:18
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Thanks. Not a lease or hire car, no. Will come back when NTK turns up.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 02:38
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Get reading POFA schedule 4 para 8 in the meantime. Dont just sit twiddling thumbs, do your research.
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ostell
post Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 09:58
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And ageny was acting under the instructions of the Lease Holder whose lease most likely gives them the right to park.
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emergencychimp
post Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 16:12
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This is a no question win surely as the notice to driver isn't valid due to not displaying the period the car was parked?
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Jlc
post Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 16:20
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QUOTE (emergencychimp @ Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 17:12) *
This is a no question win surely as the notice to driver isn't valid due to not displaying the period the car was parked?

If it was only that simple. For a 'no permit' situation periods of parking are mostly irrelevant.

Do the signs explicitly state there's no grace period?

As fetching the permit would not be unreasonable.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 17:19


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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emergencychimp
post Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 17:14
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Photo of the closest 'wordy' sign.



I was in fact parked by a sign that just said 'Private property - Strictly residents parking only' which was displayed over 3 or 4 visitor bays.
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Jlc
post Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 17:19
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How long did it take to collect the permit?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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emergencychimp
post Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 17:38
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Under 10 minutes. Driver was parked where this white BMW is.

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Lynnzer
post Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 18:16
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So many ways to kill this, or at least to cause them hassle.

For a start the lease more than likely won't impose parking restrictions for permit use. It certainly won't/can't impose a secondary contract with a parking company for use of the parking bays.

The sign is forbidding. That is, they limit parking to cars displaying a valid permit only. The rest of the wording cannot effectively be construed as an offer to park without a permit as they can't contract with you to do something they forbid.

Plenty of examples on forum on other residential cases.

Just to whet your appetite take a read of the stuff from my signature links.

Also do a skip through some of the Pranksters blog. There are many examples where people have won cases for situations like this.


--------------------
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emergencychimp
post Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 18:31
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Whilst I do not have access to the lease, I do know when the tenants moved in, there were no parking restrictions. Well, nothing enforceable wink.gif

This parking enforcement company only started their contract April this year.
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Jlc
post Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 18:38
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The bottom line is that they will reject any appeal and will almost certainly issue a claim. This is private parking at it's best.

How do they expect visitors to get the permit? By TARDIS?

But if one was giving the benefit of the doubt perhaps their operative just happened to appear a few seconds after the driver disappeared. Looked, saw the car parked and issued the ticket. They didn't appear to wait 10 minutes. Perhaps they were lurking all the time.

But a contract with them (forbidding aside) whilst the permit was being collected. If the permit could not be collected then the driver should have left, within 10 minutes. But they didn't, they returned with the (presumably) valid permit. Whilst the permit was being collected there was not a contract but a licence to remain on the land for that short period.

Whilst it could be argued about forbidding sign etc. perhaps the way to approach this is via the 'truth'. No malarkey about complying with PoFA etc. but simply the driver was collecting the permit to commence the contract (and it wouldn't have been breached).

QUOTE (emergencychimp @ Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 19:31) *
Whilst I do not have access to the lease, I do know when the tenants moved in, there were no parking restrictions. Well, nothing enforceable wink.gif

The lease is not yours - so you cannot argue its primacy.

Although, perversely a recent court case did have the visitor 'win' and the actual tenant lose their court case! (For quite different reasons mind)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 18:39


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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emergencychimp
post Mon, 21 Aug 2017 - 20:43
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So NTK was received last week. Do I need to post the photos they took?





I was thinking something along the lines of the following.

To whom it may concern,

I have received a notice to keeper re. parking charge XXXXXXX. I am appealing as the keeper of the vehicle.

The driver of the vehicle was collecting the parking permit to transfer over to the driver's vehicle at the time of the PCN being issued. Insufficient observation time was given to allow for this.

If you would like additional reasons to cancel this PCN, both the notice to driver and notice to keeper fail to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. No assumptions about the identity of the driver can be made and I am under no legal obligation to identify them, which I will not be doing.

Either contact the driver or cancel the charge. Either way I will not make any payment without a court ordering to do so. I might add no payment will ever be made to a third party. You do not have my consent to pass my data to any third party. Any costs you incur are your wasted costs to bear and are of no concern of the keeper.

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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 21 Aug 2017 - 21:16
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Yep that's fine, then when they reject, do not try the IAS stage.

If thy try a small claim, your defence will focus on the main points, that:

- an inadequate grace period was allowed to fetch the visitors' permit (contrary to the IPC CoP), and that

- the NTK is not POFA compliant (the 28 day period warning is wrongly stated, and there is no period of parking observed that would have breached a reasonable grace period) and that

- a visitor is entitled to rely upon the authority of the resident they are fetching the permit from, and the resident has primacy of contract and rights that are validly transferred to the visitor who was merely getting that permit, and

- the signage isn't capable of forming a contract, and

- the parking firm are not landowners and have no contract or status which would allow them to sue in their own name...

Example of an ''own space'' defence written by a solicitor on MSE, here:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...32#post72977032

In that one the keeper wasn't the driver and it wasn't about the few minutes taken to get a permit, so it can't be copied verbatim.

Come back at court claim stage, or when you get a Letter before Claim from Gladstones.
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