PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Lambeth Council - PCN Appeal rejected for Unloading in pedestrian zone following authorisation from parking officer
DC1
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 16:29
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 6 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,176



Hi Members,

I'm new to this forum, normally when i'm issued with a PCN, i find it easier to pay than spend hours going backwards and forwards, plus most of the the time i am in the wrong anyway. However, on this occasion i'm staring down the barrel of accumulated fines to the tune of around £800.

Allow me to explain. I am a self employed heating engineer/plumber and my main contract is with Greggs bakeries whose outlets are never in a 'parking friendly' area, my region is London and the southern home counties so it's the nature of the beast. During the months of Feb and March, i was contracted to carry out a bathroom/cloakroom refit in the Greggs flat about their shop in Electric Avenue, Brixton. Those of you who are familiar with the area will know that parking is extremely bad around this town and where Greggs (and a bunch of other shops are located in Elec Ave) there is literally nowhere close at all to leave a vehicle to load and unload. The whole job took around 13 days on and off and on around 10 of those days, i had materials to drop off in the morning and then return the vehicle to a pay by phone parking region.

On the first morning after driving round with about 20 boxes of tiles to drop for about an hour, i stopped at a junction of a small road that led to the side entrance of Greggs which gave access to the residential flat above. To be fair, there was a notice at the entrance of the road stating :

VEHICLES ARE NOT PERMITTED TO ENTER DURING OPERATIONAL HOURS WHICH ARE MON -TUES, THURS - SAT 8AM -6PM, WED 8AM -2PM (EXCEPT FOR LOADING BETWEEN 8AM -9AM AND 5PM - 6PM)

The sign itself is enough to blow your mind.

I sat at the junction (this was at about 11.30am) and clearly saw 2 and sometimes 3 vehicles in the road and to be honest, thought that they must be locals or regulars and gave me impression that parking was quite lax in that road. I decided to pull up into the road and literally at that time a parking officer walked around the corner. I briefly explained my situation clearing showing him my works order and pointing out the goods ready for delivery in my vehicle and where i needed to get them to. He acknowledged that i was in a predicament and verbally stated that he would allow me 10-15 mins to unload and then move my vehicle to an designated parking bay (about a quarter of a mile away) I also told him that i would be returning on and off for several weeks and he simply that if the vehicle is left there for unreasonable amount of time then neither him nor his colleagues would hesitate in giving me a ticket. I thanked him, offloaded my materials and tools for the day and moved my vehicle within about 5 mins so as to not abuse his good will. For clarification, there is no way i could carry the materials for that distance. To be fair, there were some loading bays a few hundred yards away that were consistently occupied and on may of the days, were full of concrete mixers and vans from groundwork contractors as there was major works going on at an adjacent junction.

Then, about a month after, i received a PCN, then another and another up to about 10 in total all showing my vehicle turning into the restricted zone on different days taken by a camera operator!!

I followed the procedure with regards appealing to the council sending copies of the official works order from Greggs, our invoice to Greggs and my letter of explanation written in a respectful manner, all as requested on the Lambeth website to back up my my statement.

Fast forward to today, and i have received 2 rejection letters and no doubt the other 7 or 8 will arrive in the next few day.

To be honest, i am a little surprised as to why this little side road has been designated a pedestrian zone, there are no shops on it, just back entrances to shops for loading and entrances to the row of residential flats above the shops. Also, it is a road, not a paved area the width of two cars so there is no blocking of the road (to pedestrians) if cars are parked. I know this isn't an argument.

To add insult to injury, the pay per park total in nearby designated bays for the time on the job amounted to around £220 so if i have to pay all the rejection letter fines when they come back, that will amount to around £1000.

On the appeal form, it states that if you are appealing under the loading/unloading section, you need to provide supporting documents such as the ones i sent over. Plus i also sent over my Gas Safe Certificate and copy of Public Liability Policy. There can be no doubt that i haven't fabricated my story so taking into account i have submitted what they have asked for, i'm guessing that asking for all that is simply a technicality and they probably don't even ponder the reasons of the appeal.

I am now thinking that the parking officer knew that i would be captured on camera but played it down, not saying he is guilty of entrapment but had he explained that even if he allowed me some breathing space, i might still be caught on camera, i would have not repeated my parking on the subsequent days.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

Thank you





Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
4 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 16:29
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 17:44
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 16,803
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



We need to see the first PCN ALL pages and a list of the contravention dates and times for all the others. Check they are all the same contravention.

then go online and get and post all the videos chronologically also post the notices of rejection

We should be able to help you but for the best chance you must give us the information required


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DC1
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 20:58
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 6 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,176



Many thanks PASTMYBEST, will do that tomorrow,

DC1
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DC1
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 12:13
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 6 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,176



Hi Pastmy

Thanks again for your reply. Out of the blue, another PCN arrived yesterday, it's almost as if they've turned it into a witch hunt because i have appealed.

I have uploaded the third PCN as i've searched high and low for the first ones but can't find them in the office. They all read exactly the same though except 2 have a slightly different contravention code that the other 7. That code is 53j on 7 PCN's and 53 on the remaining 2 but the wording is the same ' Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone'

The dates of the PCN's are as follows:

19/02/19 TUES @ 11:33 53J
20/02/19 WED @ 11:21 53J
22/02/19 FRI @ 12:32 53J
22/02/19 FRI @ 14:16 53
25/02/19 MON @ 11:01 53J
27/02/19 WED @ 09:54 53
01/03/19 FRI @ 10:48 53J
06/03/19 WED @ 10:11 53J
12/03/19 TUES @ 10:54 53J (PCN arrived yesterday, not yet appealed).

Also attached is my appeal letter which to be honest maybe worded in a way that i've shot myself in the foot because of the word 'occasion'. I sent the exact same appeal letter to appeal all of the PCN's

Thanks again,





Here is the notice of rejection showing all docs pertaining to the works being carried out at the stated address inc my appeal letter.

Thanks

This post has been edited by DC1: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 08:11
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 12:55
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,921
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



You need to show us the paperwork, I suggest you set up a folder on google drive or dropbox or similar, set up a folder for each penalty and in each folder upload the PCN (all sides of all pages), any representations you've sent and any response you received back, as well as the videos.

Also give us a link to the location on google street view.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 13:12
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 16,803
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



The PCN was there as a PDF a few minutes ago. There is a long time between the contravention date and the PCN issue date. Is it a lease vehicle?


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DC1
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 13:42
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 6 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,176



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 13:55) *
You need to show us the paperwork, I suggest you set up a folder on google drive or dropbox or similar, set up a folder for each penalty and in each folder upload the PCN (all sides of all pages), any representations you've sent and any response you received back, as well as the videos.

Also give us a link to the location on google street view.



Hi,

Please forgive the speed at which i'm loading the docs, i wish i was more computer friendly !

As i mentioned, every PCN is worded in an identical manner, can i assume that i should upload each one because of the differences in the images?
I am looking into uploading the videos as we speak.

I have snipped out an ariel view of the area showing :

A - Where the images/videos were taken
B - The flat above the Greggs where the work was taking place
C - The place where i temporarily parked my vehicle, the side entrance to the flats above the shops and where the conversation took place between myself and the parking officer. Note : At no point did i enter what i consider to be a 'true' pedestrian road, namely Electric Ave, there are barriers preventing access.

Attached Image
The closest postcode to the junction where my vehicle was filmed entering the restricted zone is SW9 8HX

Thanks again

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 14:12) *
The PCN was there as a PDF a few minutes ago. There is a long time between the contravention date and the PCN issue date. Is it a lease vehicle?



Yes, it is a contract hire vehicle.

Thanks

Hi, hopefully this has downloaded, this is the first video
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DC1
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 14:16
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 6 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,176



https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B51mulVRYL...iew?usp=sharing

Hi all,

Hopefully this link works okay, these are all the videos. Strangely enough, the last PCN that i received yesterday didn't have video evidence. I will upload the photos.

Obviously all this took place a while ago and it had slipped my mind but during the dates of 22nd, 25th and 27th of Feb, the nearest 'official' loading bay was occupied all day with vehicles belonging to groundwork crews/diggers/cement mixers that were working on the junction of Brixton Road and Atlantic Ave. You can see the said loading bay in the top right hand side of the videos......it looks as if it was barriered off.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DC1
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 14:53
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 6 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,176



Apologies for the somewhat disjointed posts.

This is the first of the 2 rejection letters that i have received so far. It could be argued that i'm jumping the gun as maybe some or all of the remaining appeals will be accepted and the PCN's cancelled but i doubt it.

Thanks

This post has been edited by DC1: Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 15:05
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Rejection_1_blank.pdf ( 186.02K ) Number of downloads: 14
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 15:11
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 7,603
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



IIRC the traffic order for Electric Avenue stipulated that drivers visiting an address there could pass the restriction signage. It'll be on a thread from a couple of years back (at least).

If that can be determined and the OP has job sheets for the dates in question that would be a winnable ground.

Otherwise the signage could be inadequate as with a number of successful cases.


Plus the photo shows the vehicle leaving--not passing a restriction sign.


EDIT---Here's the last one I can find--pick you own contravention!!!! Being in a Pedestrian Zone, Unloading during an unloading ban, driving down Electric Lane, turning left from Electric Avenue etc etc:-

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2546321

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 15:36
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 15:28
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 16,803
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 16:11) *
IIRC the traffic order for Electric Avenue stipulated that drivers visiting an address there could pass the restriction signage. It'll be on a thread from a couple of years back (at least).

If that can be determined and the OP has job sheets for the dates in question that would be a winnable ground.

Otherwise the signage could be inadequate as with a number of successful cases.


Plus the photo shows the vehicle leaving--not passing a restriction sign.


Mick


I've got this case that supports this contention

Case reference
2150044817
Appellant
Mohamed Moksed Alam
Authority
London Borough of Lambeth
VRM
KK57OUJ

PCN Details
PCN
LJ00362008
Contravention date
27 Nov 2014
Contravention time
15:11:00
Contravention location
Electric Lane
Penalty amount
GBP 130.00
Contravention
Failing to comply with pedestrian zone sign

Referral date


Decision Date
14 Mar 2015
Adjudicator
Francis LLoyd
Appeal decision
Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons
Mr Alam attended in person at the hearing of his appeal before me. He accepted that he had driven into a pedestrian zone on 27 November. He appealed on the grounds that he was driving a disabled passenger to an address in Electric Lane and produced a Booking Confirmation note confirming this.



The signage does not allow any exemptions for vehicles to enter Electric Lane. However, the Traffic Management Order does. Article 4(a) states that the prohibition does not apply to "a motor vehicle gaining access to or egress from any premises fronting upon or accessible from that length of Electric Lane which lies between its junction with Atlantic House and a point opposite the northern boundary of No 16 Electric Avenue, provided that the vehicle enters and leaves Electric Lane at its junction with Atlantic Road".



It is my understanding that the appellant was delivering a disabled passenger to an address in Electric Lane. The wording of the TMO is somewhat ambiguous, but I do not see why the phrase "gaining access to" cannot be construed as covering the situation of delivering a passenger to an address in that street.



I therefore allow the appeal.


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DC1
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 15:38
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 6 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,176



Thank Mad Mick

I'm making a right pigs ear of uploading docs today, here's my appeal letter showing the official works order from the customer (Greggs PLC) and to back up the reason as to why i was visiting that site, our invoice for the works carried out and for the avoidance of doubt as to whether it was me or not. a snapshot of a plumbing/gas certificate i hold. Probably not needed but i thought i'd throw as much into the mix as i could.



https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mcvsGV_ui_...iew?usp=sharing

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 15:39
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 7,603
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



@PMB
I've amended my post to incude a 2016 TRO which might make that case obsolete.
Mick
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DC1
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 15:54
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 6 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,176



Thanks Mick,

So, if i haven't misread what you've written, if the the only entrance to a property is via Electric Lane then a vehicle is allowed to access into the pedestrian zone via exemption Article 4a ? FYI, there is no access into the flat above Greggs via the shop that fronts onto Electric Avenue.

DC
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 17:13
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 16,803
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (DC1 @ Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 16:54) *
Thanks Mick,

So, if i haven't misread what you've written, if the the only entrance to a property is via Electric Lane then a vehicle is allowed to access into the pedestrian zone via exemption Article 4a ? FYI, there is no access into the flat above Greggs via the shop that fronts onto Electric Avenue.

DC


No they have amended the order to make the exemption time limited between 8 and 9 am and 4 and 5 pm.

We need to see the videos. One point that might win is if the photos show you exiting rather than entering and or we can look at the signage


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DC1
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 17:32
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 6 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,176



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 18:13) *
QUOTE (DC1 @ Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 16:54) *
Thanks Mick,

So, if i haven't misread what you've written, if the the only entrance to a property is via Electric Lane then a vehicle is allowed to access into the pedestrian zone via exemption Article 4a ? FYI, there is no access into the flat above Greggs via the shop that fronts onto Electric Avenue.

DC


No they have amended the order to make the exemption time limited between 8 and 9 am and 4 and 5 pm.

We need to see the videos. One point that might win is if the photos show you exiting rather than entering and or we can look at the signage


Hi PMB

Here's the link to the videos https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B51mulVRYL...iew?usp=sharing

drive.google.com/file/d/0B51mulVRYL4Mc3RhcnRlcl9maWxl/view

I'll go into the photos and get them uploaded too,

Thanks

This post has been edited by DC1: Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 17:37
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 17:41
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 16,803
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (DC1 @ Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 18:32) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 18:13) *
QUOTE (DC1 @ Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 16:54) *
Thanks Mick,

So, if i haven't misread what you've written, if the the only entrance to a property is via Electric Lane then a vehicle is allowed to access into the pedestrian zone via exemption Article 4a ? FYI, there is no access into the flat above Greggs via the shop that fronts onto Electric Avenue.

DC


No they have amended the order to make the exemption time limited between 8 and 9 am and 4 and 5 pm.

We need to see the videos. One point that might win is if the photos show you exiting rather than entering and or we can look at the signage


Hi PMB

Here's the link to the videos https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B51mulVRYL...iew?usp=sharing

drive.google.com/file/d/0B51mulVRYL4Mc3RhcnRlcl9maWxl/view

I'll go into the photos and get them uploaded too,

Thanks


no telling me it does not exist


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DC1
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 17:54
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 6 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,176



Just checked, 5 of the videos/images shows me leaving, not entering the restricted road.

As far as the law goes, wouldn't it simply be (correctly) assumed that because i'm coming out of the street then i must have gone in? Plus, to try and state anything to the contrary, wouldn't that make a mockery of my initial appeal statement?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DC1
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 18:14
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 6 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,176



Okay, sussed out how to upload everything.

I'll do PCN by PCN, here's the first.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=14DkqecQJ4...1ji91jpfXWV4fgD

Thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DC1
post Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 18:53
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 6 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,176



PCN 2


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_pOoRPx0Y...O1wb3pP0TznKlyX

pcn 3

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1J-bkQUPo7...MPmoObEaqTajAap

PCN4

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TezRmo1Vv...0veOw7ccR7cGaxn

PCN5

https://drive.google.com/open?id=15sT9kkAMZ...X8xd0FKJ_PDrZ4C

PCN6

https://drive.google.com/open?id=16rs7zsa90...wSprraUJfvZ3UXk

PCN7

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1DrnIxDK11...Pw0rpxVHZFzOqyy

PCN8

https://drive.google.com/open?id=16QFSEBVYs...PkLFURWyLmyvLVP

PCN9

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1R6lKu-z2t...Mg-qpoonj5WNoO_
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 19th July 2019 - 17:54
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.