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[NIP Wizard] NIP issued but not in the UK for some time!
Frank Lucas
post Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 12:32
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - October 2018
Date of the NIP: - 0 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 7 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - B1145 Lexham Road, Litcham, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Travelling East to West along the B1145 the road changes down from a 40 to a 30 on the bend where the road name changes from Back Street to Lexham Road in Litcham. The view on the approach to where the manned speed camera was located is blocked by overgrown bushes, meaning the camera would have pinged my motorbike during the split second I was on the bend, or during the 100 meters (or less) between the bushes and the camera itself. There were no signs on the run up to the camera warning of it's presence, in either direction.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 12:23:09 +0000

I should have mentioned that the location of the camera was on a grassed area outside of the first property you arrive at after the overgrown bushes and donkey field (if using Google maps street view)

For the record, I have recently attended a speed awareness course for speeding in my car and this time I've been caught on my motorbike over the speed limit in a village. I have no issues with the NIP, I was speeding, I'll take the punishment and that's the end of it.
My question is something a little more pressing - I'm currently out of the UK on "holiday" and won't be back until April 2019. I've very limited communication with my wife who informed me of the NIP. For obvious reasons I can't sign the NIP to state that it was infact myself using the vehicle at the time, and I won't be able to surrender my license when it comes to it.

What are my options?


This post has been edited by Frank Lucas: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 12:45
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post Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 12:32
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AntonyMMM
post Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 12:33
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No warning signs are required, nor does the camera have to be visible.

You can ask for a photo to "aid identification of the rider" if you wish, which may confirm exactly where you were at the time - they will usually supply images for you, but the request doesn't stop the 28 day clock to reply.

What speed is alleged ?

This post has been edited by AntonyMMM: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 12:34
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Frank Lucas
post Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 12:40
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QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 13:33) *
No warning signs are required, nor does the camera have to be visible.

You can ask for a photo to "aid identification of the rider" if you wish, which may confirm exactly where you were at the time - they will usually supply images for you, but the request doesn't stop the 28 day clock to reply.

What speed is alleged ?



45 in a 30. But as stated I have no issue with the NIP, I recognise that I was speeding excessively. In all honesty i didn't notice the change to 30 until I came back through the village later in the afternoon. But I'm not using that as an excuse as it was a dangerous speed.

My post is solely to find out what my options are as I'm not in the country for 5 and a half months.
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Jlc
post Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 14:41
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Surely you have an overseas postal address?

It will be a lot more pain if you don’t comply - if that excess goes to court it may be more than 3 points too.

Why don’t you (or your wife) ring them to explain?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 15:02
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At the very least you need to make arrangements to get the Section 172 notice (the request for driver's details) completed, signed and returned. Failure to do this will see you face a charge which carries six points, a hefty fine and an endorsement code which insurers dislike. Can your wife not send it to you so that you can return it direct?

The speed qualifies for a fixed penalty and as you realise you will need to send in your licence to take advantage of this. Is it essential you keep your licence with you whilst abroad or can you be without it for a while? If court proceedings are instigated (which they will be if you fail to take up the FP offer) you may be able to get the matter adjourned until after you return. When it is heard you can ask the court to sentence you at the FP equivalent. There is guidance which allows this:

"Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances."


You could, of course, try phoning the issuing office to see if they have any useful recommendations (though keep a careful note of what you were told and who told you).
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Frank Lucas
post Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 16:14
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 15:41) *
Surely you have an overseas postal address?

It will be a lot more pain if you don’t comply - if that excess goes to court it may be more than 3 points too.

Why don’t you (or your wife) ring them to explain?


I do indeed have a BFPO address, but it takes approximately 45 days for any mail to reach us, and vice versa.
I'm also not able to have a simcard in my mobile, so calling them is out of the window. I could however get my wife to do so, just thought I'd try for some advice before going down that route, incase leaving it until my return would be a better alternative.


QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 16:02) *
At the very least you need to make arrangements to get the Section 172 notice (the request for driver's details) completed, signed and returned. Failure to do this will see you face a charge which carries six points, a hefty fine and an endorsement code which insurers dislike. Can your wife not send it to you so that you can return it direct?

The speed qualifies for a fixed penalty and as you realise you will need to send in your licence to take advantage of this. Is it essential you keep your licence with you whilst abroad or can you be without it for a while? If court proceedings are instigated (which they will be if you fail to take up the FP offer) you may be able to get the matter adjourned until after you return. When it is heard you can ask the court to sentence you at the FP equivalent. There is guidance which allows this:

"Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances."


You could, of course, try phoning the issuing office to see if they have any useful recommendations (though keep a careful note of what you were told and who told you).


As above any post would take a substansive amount of time to reach me and be sent back to the UK. Well over the 28 day period.

Surrendering my license is not an option whilst I'm away unfortunately, due to the nature of my employment.

I'll have my wife call for advice.
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southpaw82
post Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 18:32
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She could ask if they’ll accept a nomination on a scanned form via email - depending on your circs re receiving emails where you will be at the relevant time.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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cp8759
post Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 14:20
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QUOTE (Frank Lucas @ Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 12:32) *
My question is something a little more pressing - I'm currently out of the UK on "holiday" and won't be back until April 2019. I've very limited communication with my wife who informed me of the NIP. For obvious reasons I can't sign the NIP to state that it was infact myself using the vehicle at the time, and I won't be able to surrender my license when it comes to it.

What are my options?

The law requires you to provide the information required on the s172 form, but there is no requirement to use the form requested by the police. Just write a letter including all the information they have requested, including your current overseas address (if you have one) and your BFPO address, and send it airmail using the postal service of the country where you are stationed (i.e. not using BFPO), assuming you're in a country that has a postal service it would reach them within a couple of weeks, possibly less. Unless they agree they'll accept a response by email (but you'd need to write a letter and scan it, you can't just send an email as a hand-written signature is required).

You state that surrendering your licence is not an option, but unless you reach some sort of agreement with them to keep the matter on hold until you're back, you would be convicted in your absence and if you then don't surrender your licence then DVLA will simply revoke your licence for non-surrender. I'm sure your employer would not be impressed to know you're working overseas on a revoked (and thus invalid) driving licence so I would not recommend this route. In practice I can only see this playing out one of two ways:

1) They agree to drop the batter on public interest grounds, or
2) You name yourself as the driver and they issue court proceedings but they also agree to adjourn the matter until April 2019. It should be possible at that point to persuade the court to keep the fine at the fixed penalty notice level (as the matter wouldn't have been dealt with by fixed penalty notice for reasons quite clearly unconnected to the offence itself).

Unfortunately the timescales mean that unless they drop the case, no out of court disposal will be available.

If you ignore them, you will end up with six points on your licence, a large fine, and unless you surrender your licence, your licence will be revoked no matter where you are in the world (or even if you're in space for that matter).

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 14:21


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Frank Lucas
post Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 18:02
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 15:20) *
QUOTE (Frank Lucas @ Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 12:32) *
My question is something a little more pressing - I'm currently out of the UK on "holiday" and won't be back until April 2019. I've very limited communication with my wife who informed me of the NIP. For obvious reasons I can't sign the NIP to state that it was infact myself using the vehicle at the time, and I won't be able to surrender my license when it comes to it.

What are my options?

The law requires you to provide the information required on the s172 form, but there is no requirement to use the form requested by the police. Just write a letter including all the information they have requested, including your current overseas address (if you have one) and your BFPO address, and send it airmail using the postal service of the country where you are stationed (i.e. not using BFPO), assuming you're in a country that has a postal service it would reach them within a couple of weeks, possibly less. Unless they agree they'll accept a response by email (but you'd need to write a letter and scan it, you can't just send an email as a hand-written signature is required).

You state that surrendering your licence is not an option, but unless you reach some sort of agreement with them to keep the matter on hold until you're back, you would be convicted in your absence and if you then don't surrender your licence then DVLA will simply revoke your licence for non-surrender. I'm sure your employer would not be impressed to know you're working overseas on a revoked (and thus invalid) driving licence so I would not recommend this route. In practice I can only see this playing out one of two ways:

1) They agree to drop the batter on public interest grounds, or
2) You name yourself as the driver and they issue court proceedings but they also agree to adjourn the matter until April 2019. It should be possible at that point to persuade the court to keep the fine at the fixed penalty notice level (as the matter wouldn't have been dealt with by fixed penalty notice for reasons quite clearly unconnected to the offence itself).

Unfortunately the timescales mean that unless they drop the case, no out of court disposal will be available.

If you ignore them, you will end up with six points on your licence, a large fine, and unless you surrender your licence, your licence will be revoked no matter where you are in the world (or even if you're in space for that matter).



Thanks very much for the info.
My wife has been in touch with them. Whoever she spoke to on the phone initially had no idea what to do given the circumstances.
She was asked for the barracks I normally reside at and was eventually told they'd investigate further. But nothing more was said. That leads me to believe that they will contact my hierarchy to confirm that I am infact on a deployment for the stated period. Hopefully they'll then put the matter on hold until my return or until I get some R&R.
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cp8759
post Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 18:26
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QUOTE (Frank Lucas @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 18:02) *
Thanks very much for the info.
My wife has been in touch with them. Whoever she spoke to on the phone initially had no idea what to do given the circumstances.
She was asked for the barracks I normally reside at and was eventually told they'd investigate further. But nothing more was said. That leads me to believe that they will contact my hierarchy to confirm that I am infact on a deployment for the stated period. Hopefully they'll then put the matter on hold until my return or until I get some R&R.

Personally I would get your wife to chase them in the middle of next week, and to be honest I'd send the s172 reply letter anyway. If it all goes south, a copy of that letter with proof of posting will be your iron clad defence should you ever be accused of a section 172 offence. Nothing that's been said on the phone has removed your legal obligation to reply to the request for information.


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peterguk
post Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 18:26
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QUOTE (Frank Lucas @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 18:02) *
That leads me to believe ...


I wouldn't just assume anything. They're under no obligation to make further enquiries and assumptions have a habit of coming back and biting. Keep on top of it and get any arrangement in writing.


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The Rookie
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 01:02
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 15:20) *
The law requires you to provide the information required on the s172 form,

No it doesn’t, Jones V DPP settled that, but it does conventionally require it in writing.


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Fredd
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 09:46
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 01:02) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 15:20) *
The law requires you to provide the information required on the s172 form,

No it doesn’t, Jones V DPP settled that, but it does conventionally require it in writing.


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 14:20) *
The law requires you to provide the information required on the s172 form, but there is no requirement to use the form requested by the police.


My emphasis. There are short attention spans, and then apparently there are micro-attention spans.


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NewJudge
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 12:47
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 09:46) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 01:02) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 15:20) *
The law requires you to provide the information required on the s172 form,

No it doesn’t, Jones V DPP settled that, but it does conventionally require it in writing.


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 14:20) *
The law requires you to provide the information required on the s172 form, but there is no requirement to use the form requested by the police.


My emphasis. There are short attention spans, and then apparently there are micro-attention spans.

I think the confusion is in erroneously taking the first part of CP's sentence in isolation. Perhaps this would be less confusing:

The law requires you to provide the information as listed on the s172 form. However there is no requirement to use the form provided to supply this information.
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Figaro
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 19:07
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My thoughts may be completely off whack but can’t the OPs wife nominate her husband with his bfpo address and let them get on with sending it? If it takes 45 days to reach him that’s not his fault is it? He surely has a rock solid defence for his late reply, he would have done everything in his power wouldn’t he? If his response takes another 45 days to get back it might end up close to timing out?

Thinking of the fight back?
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NewJudge
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 21:58
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QUOTE (Figaro @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 19:07) *
My thoughts may be completely off whack but can’t the OPs wife nominate her husband with his bfpo address and let them get on with sending it?

Not really. The Section 172 notice was not addressed to her.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 21:58
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Figaro
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 23:48
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How about just leaving it until he returns to the UK and responding then. Of course he’ll be summonsed for FtF but surely have a good defence? Should be timed out for speeding summons by then too?

I’m shooting from the hip here but thinking of the fight?
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southpaw82
post Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 11:29
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QUOTE (Figaro @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 23:48) *
How about just leaving it until he returns to the UK and responding then. Of course he’ll be summonsed for FtF but surely have a good defence? Should be timed out for speeding summons by then too?

I’m shooting from the hip here but thinking of the fight?

Considering he knows about it and it is possible for him to respond (though perhaps not in the permitted timescale) relying on reasonable practicability seems iffy.


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cp8759
post Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 23:00
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QUOTE (Figaro @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 23:48) *
How about just leaving it until he returns to the UK and responding then. Of course he’ll be summonsed for FtF but surely have a good defence? Should be timed out for speeding summons by then too?

I’m shooting from the hip here but thinking of the fight?

He may well be convicted in his absence if he just ignores it. Sending a letter (weather via the local postal service or BFPO) is clearly within the abilities of a reasonably diligent RK. As his wife would presumably receive the summons and alert him of its arrival, so he wouldn't even be able to make an SD to set aside the conviction. And he would have a revoked licence as well which his employer might not be happy about either. Leaving it is just about the worst thing he could do to be honest.


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Frank Lucas
post Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 21:52
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So other than sending via a European mail service I have no option as we don't have a BFPO return post service.We can receive, but have no means to send.

No idea how long it would take using a European mail service as everything goes via road over here, no air mail.

Still waiting on a reply but will have my wife chase them up again.

Thanks for the advice so far.
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