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Assistance required on impending NIP case
Will4long
post Thu, 28 Mar 2019 - 17:45
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Hi,
Looking for guidance if possible regards a potential impending NIP.

Allegedly I have been caught speeding by a SPEC camera doing 86 in a 60mph zone. The alleged vehicle was a rental car of which they received 1st form to complete. They must have completed this form with the address of my Company headquarters whom are responsible for making the reservations.
One of my company`s admin team have emailed me a copy of the NIP they have received which is not addressed nor named to myself. I have not received a NIP to my home address either.

They way I see it, I cannot legally fill in this form as not addressed to me. Is that correct ?


Also, having looked at the photographs on the public access system, there is no way I can make out the registration of the vehicle on any of the pics. Is that normal ?

Any guidance appreciated. Thanks
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NewJudge
post Fri, 29 Mar 2019 - 20:23
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QUOTE (Will4long @ Fri, 29 Mar 2019 - 17:18) *
Ok, thanks for the guidance. Is the EH plea purely verbal then or do I require documents/proof relating to it ?

Normally verbal. You will usually be asked to take an oath or affirmation (meaning if you lie you commit perjury). You can explain your circumstances verbally or if you are uncomfortable speaking in public you can type it out and ask the magistrates to read it (take five copies - one for each of the three magistrates, one for the court's Legal Advisor and one for the prosecutor). Be prepared to be questioned by the Magistrates and possibly the prosecutor. Try to explain why alternatives to you driving (public transport, getting lifts, etc.) are not possible or practical). You can take supporting documents if you wish. (Say you claim to need to drive a sick relative, medical evidence of their condition may help - provided they agree to it being disclosed, of course). Remember that the hardship has to be "exceptional". That is to say over and above that which anybody might suffer when disqualified.
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Korting
post Sun, 31 Mar 2019 - 23:40
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Do you have to reply to the company's email? If they cant read a simple statement than that on the NIP, surely that's their problem not yours.

if you dont answer companies email then you haven't committed any offence, they have and if it times out they'll get the fine not you and you wont get any points.
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peodude
post Mon, 1 Apr 2019 - 10:51
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I concur with Korting. Ignore the e-mail, and wait for a NIP in your own name. If the company don't reply with your details then you're in the clear.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 1 Apr 2019 - 13:53
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Bear in mind that it may lead to issues with the employer.


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Will4long
post Tue, 2 Apr 2019 - 08:53
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QUOTE (Korting @ Sun, 31 Mar 2019 - 23:40) *
Do you have to reply to the company's email? If they cant read a simple statement than that on the NIP, surely that's their problem not yours.

if you dont answer companies email then you haven't committed any offence, they have and if it times out they'll get the fine not you and you wont get any points.



Is it a case of if my Employer doesn`t respond to the letter within the 28 days, is that it ? Or would they get a reminder or even chased up to supply details at a later date ?

I have a feeling that my company probably have posted the NIP out to my home address, but as you say it`s not from the police, nor addressed to me on the NIP itself.

QUOTE (NewJudge @ Fri, 29 Mar 2019 - 20:23) *
QUOTE (Will4long @ Fri, 29 Mar 2019 - 17:18) *
Ok, thanks for the guidance. Is the EH plea purely verbal then or do I require documents/proof relating to it ?

Normally verbal. You will usually be asked to take an oath or affirmation (meaning if you lie you commit perjury). You can explain your circumstances verbally or if you are uncomfortable speaking in public you can type it out and ask the magistrates to read it (take five copies - one for each of the three magistrates, one for the court's Legal Advisor and one for the prosecutor). Be prepared to be questioned by the Magistrates and possibly the prosecutor. Try to explain why alternatives to you driving (public transport, getting lifts, etc.) are not possible or practical). You can take supporting documents if you wish. (Say you claim to need to drive a sick relative, medical evidence of their condition may help - provided they agree to it being disclosed, of course). Remember that the hardship has to be "exceptional". That is to say over and above that which anybody might suffer when disqualified.


Many thanks for the input.

I don`t have any elderly or sick relatives situations really that I`m required to drive for. The biggest hardship would be the development of my 3.5year old child, whereby for 2 weeks of the month I am his sole child carer as his mum works full-time. This includes dropping him at 2 different nurseries/Pre-school, of which there can be a 30min window between him finishing one and getting to the next. Also I take him to his swimming group which is some distance from home, and to get public transport would mean leaving very early in morning which obviously would have an impact on him, plus additionally he wouldn`t make Pre-school after it in time.

Beyond that then I have just been promoted this week, which actually will require more driving then my previous roles, where by I will be required to go between Airport, Office and 2 remote factory locations on East Coast of England some 250miles apart, as and when required.

Not sure whether any of the above would even carry any weight though. :-(

This post has been edited by Will4long: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 - 09:16
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 2 Apr 2019 - 09:34
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The company will very likely receive a reminder, although it isn't required.

It may be worth looking on Companies House and seeing if your employer has a company secretary. They are notionally charged with replying, but it isn't required that limited companies have to have secretaries. In that instance, there is no reason why your employer couldn't nominate you to complete the form.

As above, if no reply is received there won't be any comeback on your from the police or courts, however your company may or may not be unhappy about the large fine they receive if they were expecting you to reply.

Your exceptional hardship plea sounds fairly weak on the face of it. It isn't exceptional that you have to get your kids to school unless circumstances made that very difficult - rather than inconvenient - to do without driving. It wouldn't be the end of the world to stop swimming lessons for six months. As has been said losing your job is unlikely to be exceptional. You really need to focus on the impact the ban would have on others, and ones that can't be reasonably mitigated against for six months.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 - 09:35
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Will4long
post Tue, 2 Apr 2019 - 09:44
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 2 Apr 2019 - 09:34) *
The company will very likely receive a reminder, although it isn't required.

It may be worth looking on Companies House and seeing if your employer has a company secretary. They are notionally charged with replying, but it isn't required that limited companies have to have secretaries. In that instance, there is no reason why your employer couldn't nominate you to complete the form.

As above, if no reply is received there won't be any comeback on your from the police or courts, however your company may or may not be unhappy about the large fine they receive if they were expecting you to reply.

Your exceptional hardship plea sounds fairly weak on the face of it. It isn't exceptional that you have to get your kids to school unless circumstances made that very difficult - rather than inconvenient - to do without driving. It wouldn't be the end of the world to stop swimming lessons for six months. As has been said losing your job is unlikely to be exceptional. You really need to focus on the impact the ban would have on others, and ones that can't be reasonably mitigated against for six months.


The company does have a registered secretary named on Companies House, although this is at the Head UK Office in London. The NIP has been sent to the smaller UK based office which doesn't list on Companies House. Been sent here as I assume the rental firm has put down their address (wrong and weird at same time), and therefore its landed on the lap of the Office Manager/Clerk, whom emailed me.

I appreciate the comments regards the initial basis of a plea, and was as I suspected really, thus I think I am seriously going to struggle putting something together for an EH plea on my current situation.
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 2 Apr 2019 - 10:12
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In that case you are in the clear in the sense there is no obligation to reply beyond any unhappiness on your employers part.

Seeing as EH costs nothing its worth giving it a go even if its not a great case. E.g. if you lost your job it would reduce the financial c I ntribution you could make towards your child. You do a specialsed role which would take your company some time to replace, disrupting their business. Your child attends weekly swimming lessons because they want to move into competitive swimming/they struggle with other forms of exercise.

You know your situation but you get the idea. You can't lie but you can phrase it to emphasise the effect on others, and not extensively mention the effect it would have on you.
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Will4long
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 10:57
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 2 Apr 2019 - 11:12) *
In that case you are in the clear in the sense there is no obligation to reply beyond any unhappiness on your employers part.

Seeing as EH costs nothing its worth giving it a go even if its not a great case. E.g. if you lost your job it would reduce the financial c I ntribution you could make towards your child. You do a specialsed role which would take your company some time to replace, disrupting their business. Your child attends weekly swimming lessons because they want to move into competitive swimming/they struggle with other forms of exercise.

You know your situation but you get the idea. You can't lie but you can phrase it to emphasise the effect on others, and not extensively mention the effect it would have on you.


Employer has posted the NIP they received to my home address as I suspected they might. I have emailed the Admin person back saying I cannot legally complete this and that they rental firm should have completed it with the drivers details they held at time against that rental vehicle/time in 1st place.

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The Rookie
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 11:05
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The company CAN nominate you to complete it, if you failed to do so though they would be the one punished for the criminal offence, though it may not go down well.

QUOTE (Will4long @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 11:57) *
I cannot legally complete this

Yes you can, as above.

If you do respond on behalf of the company you would then get a NIP in your own name you would have to respond to.


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Will4long
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 14:49
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 12:05) *
The company CAN nominate you to complete it, if you failed to do so though they would be the one punished for the criminal offence, though it may not go down well.

QUOTE (Will4long @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 11:57) *
I cannot legally complete this

Yes you can, as above.

If you do respond on behalf of the company you would then get a NIP in your own name you would have to respond to.



I think I understand although its just the way the wording on the NIP doesn`t help as such , by stating "only complete if it`s addressed to you" etc.

If/when I complete Part 1 of the NIP with my details then, are you saying I would then receive another NIP sent to my address for me to complete again ?
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NewJudge
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 14:59
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 15:38) *
If/when I complete Part 1 of the NIP with my details then, are you saying I would then receive another NIP sent to my address for me to complete again ?

Yes.

The return made by the Company (even if you complete it) is not evidence that you were driving. (You -replying on behalf of the Company - could nominate anybody you like - it doesn't prove that they were driving). You have to complete your own return - as an individual - accepting you were the driver. Without this there is no evidence to support a speeding allegation against you.
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southpaw82
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 15:30
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 15:59) *
The return made by the Company (even if you complete it) is not evidence that you were driving.

The decision of the Divisional Court in Mawdesley & Anor v DPP might suggest otherwise. If it can be shown (or inferred) that the form was completed by the defendant it can be admitted as a confession under s 76 of PACE.


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NewJudge
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 16:50
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Thanks, sp.

Was there anything particularly unusual in that case? Surely it would be easier for a second S172 request to be sent to the individual?
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southpaw82
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 17:10
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 17:50) *
Thanks, sp.

Was there anything particularly unusual in that case? Surely it would be easier for a second S172 request to be sent to the individual?

Unsigned forms in England. Not sure there was authority at the time that said they had to be signed.


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NewJudge
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 18:03
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 18:10) *
Unsigned forms in England. Not sure there was authority at the time that said they had to be signed.

But wasn't that a different issue? The form the OP might submit will, presumably be signed. Isn't the issue whether a S172 completed by "The Company" (albeit completed by the same person who is nominated) is acceptable without a second S172 to the individual?

Maybe it's a moot point.
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southpaw82
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 18:17
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 19:03) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 18:10) *
Unsigned forms in England. Not sure there was authority at the time that said they had to be signed.

But wasn't that a different issue? The form the OP might submit will, presumably be signed. Isn't the issue whether a S172 completed by "The Company" (albeit completed by the same person who is nominated) is acceptable without a second S172 to the individual?

Maybe it's a moot point.

It's almost certainly a moot point. However, a form completed by the defendant admitting to being the driver would, in theory, be admissible as a confession under PACE. If it was not addressed to him it would not be admissible under s 12 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.


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Will4long
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 18:30
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The above last few posts confuse me, especially not being knowledgeable on these acts/legislation.

My thoughts are if I complete the Part 1 of the NIP addressed to my Employer, with my details and I sign against this in with my name, then why would they send another NIP to my address ?

It would be nice if they do though, as for personal reasons delaying any ban coming my way actually helps in my current circumstances with the job promotion.
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southpaw82
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 18:38
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QUOTE (Will4long @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 19:30) *
The above last few posts confuse me, especially not being knowledgeable on these acts/legislation.

My thoughts are if I complete the Part 1 of the NIP addressed to my Employer, with my details and I sign against this in with my name, then why would they send another NIP to my address ?

It would be nice if they do though, as for personal reasons delaying any ban coming my way actually helps in my current circumstances with the job promotion.

The normal way for a signed s 172 form to be admitted as evidence of the driver's identity is via s 12 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988. One of the conditions of s 12 is that the notice must have been addressed to the driver. This is why you will get your own "NIP" (actually a s 172 notice) to complete, as the one you have is not addressed to you. There are other ways to introduce a form completed by the driver, as set out above, but they are not commonly used.


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Will4long
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 19:04
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 19:38) *
QUOTE (Will4long @ Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 19:30) *
The above last few posts confuse me, especially not being knowledgeable on these acts/legislation.

My thoughts are if I complete the Part 1 of the NIP addressed to my Employer, with my details and I sign against this in with my name, then why would they send another NIP to my address ?

It would be nice if they do though, as for personal reasons delaying any ban coming my way actually helps in my current circumstances with the job promotion.

The normal way for a signed s 172 form to be admitted as evidence of the driver's identity is via s 12 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988. One of the conditions of s 12 is that the notice must have been addressed to the driver. This is why you will get your own "NIP" (actually a s 172 notice) to complete, as the one you have is not addressed to you. There are other ways to introduce a form completed by the driver, as set out above, but they are not commonly used.


Understood and thanks for the clarity !
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