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Fife Constabulary - Again, Pre trial court attendance next week, no video
Prof
post Mon, 27 Mar 2006 - 18:17
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1. Fife Constabulary
2. Date of Offence - 20/11/05 12:14
3. NIP dated 22/11/05
4. Received - 24/11/05
5. A92 Lochgelly to Kirkcaldy West
6. Addressed to me
7. Sent First Class Post
8. I am RK
9. 0 points currently

Alleged 89mph in a 70mph dual carriageway. Wrote to scamera unit to request photos/training manuals/certificate of conformance/ pocket book notes etc.

Reply back on the 8/12 with a little back and white photo (sun glaring off car), no distance or speed stamp on databar. Confirmed device is a LTI 20/20 dodgyscope. usual waffle about take it now or face higher penalities later. My FOI requests passed to the FOI officer. Would only get the info I am looking for (training manuals/certificate of conformance/ pocket book notes etc.) once I signed the nip and sent it back too them. Invitation to come and look at the video at the scamera unit.

My reply on the 12/12 stated that I felt intimated and that I would not be viewing the video at their location but would be requesting a copy. Explained that if I was too sign the nip that I would be incrimating myself and giving up my human rights to silence under section 6 blah blah. I explained that the vehicle in the photo provided was not speeding (no distance speed markings on the data bar) and as such no case to answer.

Reply from Scammera Unit on the 14/12 from Karen MacKenzie, Programme Manager of the Fife Safety Camera Unit stating that the photo is to assist in driver indentification purposes only. They are under no obligation to provide the photos I am asking for. Mssr MacKenzie states regarding the signing of the nip:

"THE IDENTIFICATION OF THE DRIVER ON THE NOTICE IS NOT AN ADMISSION OF GUILT"

YOU READ IT HERE FIRST GUYS!

Followed by more gentle advisement of sign it or we will do you for S172. Another free invite to attend the scamera unit to watch the video - declined....

19/12/05 Completed NIP, signed under section 6 of the convention of human rights and asterixed to the comments made by K Mackenzie about it being not an admission of guilt.

21/12/05 Conditional Offer sent (very efficent, Happy Bloody Christmas)

Reply from Scammera Unit on the 23/12 with copies of a training certificate (name cut out). Number of device, certificate of conformity etc. NO TRAINING MANUAL, NO POCKET BOOK NOTES, NO VIDEO.

Various correspondence, back and forth re the missing requests (another invite this time from the Chief to attend the unit to watch the video, no thanks!! Training materials being refused under commerical interests section of the FOISA and start of video (includes pre checks) withheld under data protection act.

29/12/05 - Request under the FOISA 2002 and the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 to release statements, videos, training materials etc.

11/01/06 - Happy New Year, Letter from Chief Inspector

"I note that you are fully aquainted with the relevant legislation"...... YES!!!!! (Thanks Pepipoo)

Blah about not getting the relevant stuff until the Procurator Fiscal decides to take it to court, then they will be more than happy to assist.

More blah about dodgyscope training manuals not being alllowed to be copied (copyright). I explained that since Civilian Operators are not employees of teletraffic it means that Fife Constabulary must allow non teletraffic employees to read them. Therefore whats their problem????

Admittance that there is currently NO witness statement (This would only come about if I went to court). Invitation to see the pre check video by Appointment (dont think so buddy, I want the tape to get it analysed). First time this statement is used by the Chief.

"SHOULD YOUR CASE GO TO COURT!"

(Used again in second reply)

I then replied asking if the camera operator was a policeman. Reply from Chief was No, the camera operator is civilian, and is allowed to give primary evidence as he is working for the chief constable. No policeman viewed the video, there are no photographs available of the camera itself or the alleged incident with distance/speed markers on it.

Yet another refusal to see the training manuals (How can one prove that the device is being operated correctly if there is no baseline information???).

Anyway count so far:

Scamera Unit Manager - 3 * 2 page replies
Chief Inspector - 2 * 2 page replies
FOI Officer - 2 * 2 page replies

For every this else theres mastercard, Priceless!

No costs in scotland and I am going to request Mr Garrets attendance (Me being a old radio/cellular engineer in a past life).

So the question I want to ask is there anything else I should be doing, or should have done differently??

BR Professor
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Prof
post Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 21:17
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So I would have to call Hazel Blears MP as a witness to speak to her written answers?

mmmm

I take it that I would then also need to call someone from ACPO to speak to the Code of Practice Manual then??

confused, Prof
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jeffreyarcher
post Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 21:50
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QUOTE (Prof @ Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 21:17) *
So I would have to call Hazel Blears MP as a witness to speak to her written answers?

That's obviously preposterous; they're taking the piss. The problem is that they know that you probably don't know the answer. I think that the answer's probably in ss(1) and ss(2).
ss(1) says that an original would stand on its own.
Yours won't be an original, so I think that ss (2) is the answer, so it would have to be a certified copy, which I presume that yours isn't.

QUOTE (Prof @ Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 21:17) *
I take it that I would then also need to call someone from ACPO to speak to the Code of Practice Manual then??

Unless we know the way round it, probably. I'm sure there is a procedural way round it, it's just that we don't know what it is.
The problem is that you're up against it time wise now. Had it not been for that, I think that you could have written to the PF and asked him to agree it, and if he wouldn't, what he disagreed with about it.
The other problem is, merely because you authenticate the ACPO gudelines, it proves nothing about their use in Scotland. You would also have to get something from the local constabulary to confirm that they used them.

Also, remember, AFAIK, if you get a witness, you are liable for their expenses.

This post has been edited by jeffreyarcher: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 22:29
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Posts in this topic
- Prof   Fife Constabulary - Again   Mon, 27 Mar 2006 - 18:17
- - MX6Storm   Now you have got me curious - I see by your NIP id...   Mon, 27 Mar 2006 - 19:18
|- - Prof   http://professor12345.tripod.com/nips nip10 - NI...   Mon, 27 Mar 2006 - 20:04
- - Prof   Graeme The place I think you are referring to is ...   Tue, 28 Mar 2006 - 13:43
|- - kinell   QUOTE (Prof @ Tue, 28 Mar 2006 - 14...   Wed, 9 Aug 2006 - 22:03
- - Prof   Summons Arrived...... Not sure what is in it yet ...   Thu, 20 Apr 2006 - 13:23
- - Prof   Hi Im off to court next week for my Plea and have...   Mon, 8 May 2006 - 06:56
- - Red Kev 01   As far as i am aware if you go to court and the Po...   Mon, 8 May 2006 - 10:49
|- - Prof   Hi Kev Yes the NIp was signed (duhhhh) but also t...   Mon, 8 May 2006 - 19:20
|- - Prof   Thank JA, I will send a letter to the PF and to t...   Tue, 9 May 2006 - 14:40
- - jeffreyarcher   Hi Prof, QUOTE (Prof)2. Date of Offence - 20/11/05...   Mon, 8 May 2006 - 23:42
- - Prof   Hi Can someone move me/this post into the members ...   Mon, 26 Jun 2006 - 14:26
- - firefly   You're in. Give us both barrells!   Mon, 26 Jun 2006 - 20:12
- - Prof   Ok http://professor12345.tripod.com/nips/index.al...   Mon, 26 Jun 2006 - 22:58
- - g_attrill   This is a nice clear precis of the way their civil...   Tue, 27 Jun 2006 - 09:39
- - Prof   Main Items that I will base my defence on: - Acce...   Tue, 27 Jun 2006 - 19:20
- - Prof   Oh Good Fame at last! Looks like my case is i...   Wed, 9 Aug 2006 - 21:17
- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof)Looks like my case is in the below she...   Thu, 10 Aug 2006 - 00:33
- - Prof   From the Chief Constable "The operator was n...   Thu, 10 Aug 2006 - 12:44
- - Prof   What looks apparent though is they are going for t...   Thu, 10 Aug 2006 - 20:02
- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof)<...> they are going for the pic...   Thu, 10 Aug 2006 - 22:48
- - Prof   But how can they send you a Nip saying that they h...   Fri, 11 Aug 2006 - 14:55
- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof)But how can they send you a Nip saying...   Sat, 12 Aug 2006 - 00:28
- - Prof   Just spoke to the deputy PF who was dealing with m...   Mon, 14 Aug 2006 - 15:23
- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof)I may have to engage dr michael clark ...   Tue, 15 Aug 2006 - 02:00
- - Prof   Well, My ID is on wednesday morning and no reply/d...   Mon, 21 Aug 2006 - 08:21
- - jeffreyarcher   There was quite a big article in the Glasgow Heral...   Tue, 22 Aug 2006 - 00:58
- - Prof   Thanks Jeffrey, have tried searching for it and ca...   Tue, 22 Aug 2006 - 10:11
- - Prof   Off to my ID tomorrow, wish me luck!   Tue, 22 Aug 2006 - 15:53
- - Prof   Formal written complaint faxed to the pfs office t...   Tue, 22 Aug 2006 - 22:10
- - Percy Cution   Good luck and keep smiling like the guy in the Jag...   Tue, 22 Aug 2006 - 22:41
- - Prof   Well well well, what an interesting ID. Turned...   Wed, 23 Aug 2006 - 20:21
- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof)Thanks Jeffrey, have tried searching f...   Thu, 24 Aug 2006 - 01:13
- - Prof   Cheers Jeffrey I am more than sure now that they ...   Thu, 24 Aug 2006 - 09:29
- - Prof   Im getting to precognise the civilian camera opera...   Thu, 24 Aug 2006 - 19:22
- - Haddaway And Shite   What marriage.   Thu, 24 Aug 2006 - 19:47
- - Prof   The fight goes on. Latest letter arrived today in...   Sat, 21 Oct 2006 - 12:12
- - Prof   REPORT FROM MY ID TODAY 01/11/06 Ok, went down t...   Wed, 1 Nov 2006 - 16:54
|- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof @ Wed, 1 Nov 2006 - 16:5...   Wed, 1 Nov 2006 - 21:18
- - The Rookie   How do you appeal in Scotland against the total re...   Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 12:29
- - Prof   "Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 (c. 4...   Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 13:18
|- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof @ Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 13:1...   Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 20:16
- - Prof   Response back fro Fife constabulary re my video (a...   Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 18:20
- - Prof   Response back fro Fife constabulary re my video (a...   Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 18:20
- - Prof   So I would have to call Hazel Blears MP as a witne...   Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 21:17
|- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof @ Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 21:1...   Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 21:50
- - Prof   JA My precognition interview with the operator co...   Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 23:07
|- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof @ Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 23:0...   Fri, 3 Nov 2006 - 11:14
- - Prof   Ive faxed the PF earlier today requesting a meetin...   Thu, 2 Nov 2006 - 23:34
- - Prof   Sheriff Officers tell me that I can cite the camer...   Fri, 3 Nov 2006 - 11:21
|- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof @ Fri, 3 Nov 2006 - 11:2...   Fri, 3 Nov 2006 - 11:56
- - Prof   Ive just asked ACPO if they can confirm if the ACP...   Fri, 3 Nov 2006 - 12:20
|- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof @ Fri, 3 Nov 2006 - 12:2...   Sun, 5 Nov 2006 - 01:53
- - Prof   So we need to find out what version Fife is using....   Sun, 5 Nov 2006 - 04:22
- - Prof   Quick update A reply from the area PF today that ...   Fri, 10 Nov 2006 - 00:49
|- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof @ Fri, 10 Nov 2006 - 00...   Fri, 10 Nov 2006 - 01:27
|- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (jeffreyarcher @ Fri, 10 Nov 2006 ...   Fri, 10 Nov 2006 - 01:58
- - Prof   Mmmmmm More smoke and mirrors from the scottish le...   Fri, 10 Nov 2006 - 08:57
- - Prof   Just phoned the clerk of the court. There are no ...   Fri, 10 Nov 2006 - 14:54
|- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof @ Fri, 10 Nov 2006 - 14...   Sat, 11 Nov 2006 - 20:09
- - Prof   Well, Im just about ready. What a gig this has be...   Mon, 13 Nov 2006 - 22:11
- - jeffreyarcher   Best of luck, Prof.   Tue, 14 Nov 2006 - 01:00
- - Prof   Thanks JA will report when I get back. Hi Ho, Hi...   Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 07:48
- - Prof   Well, Well then A mini victory, more later.... ...   Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 16:00
- - popdog28   Was this at the I.D?? Mine is Monday, and I have h...   Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 16:08
|- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (popdog28 @ Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 16...   Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 16:14
- - popdog28   Sorry J.A, I hsould know that this was prof's ...   Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 16:34
- - Prof   Quick reply, (Mums birthday so need to be somewhe...   Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 17:26
|- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof @ Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 17...   Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 19:07
- - Prof   PRIZE Comment for the day Discussing the disclosu...   Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 22:28
- - Prof   Was it perhaps a devolution issue? Yup that was i...   Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 23:18
- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof @ Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 16...   Thu, 16 Nov 2006 - 00:58
- - Prof   popdog28 how did you get on? prof   Mon, 20 Nov 2006 - 18:56
|- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof @ Mon, 20 Nov 2006 - 18...   Mon, 20 Nov 2006 - 21:01
- - Prof   Well well well It appears that Fife Scameraship d...   Thu, 7 Dec 2006 - 22:41
- - Prof   ADDITIONAL WITNESSES LIST DISCLOSED BY THE CROWN ...   Wed, 13 Dec 2006 - 13:57
- - Prof   Hello Peeps Another ID again tomorrow but still n...   Sun, 14 Jan 2007 - 21:41
- - Prof   Well, Another ID today, Sherriff has ruled that e...   Mon, 15 Jan 2007 - 16:08
|- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (Prof @ Mon, 15 Jan 2007 - 16...   Tue, 16 Jan 2007 - 01:41
- - Prof   Or He will need to rethink the trial date as we w...   Wed, 17 Jan 2007 - 08:04
- - jeffreyarcher   So what's next? Presumably by the 12th the PF ...   Thu, 18 Jan 2007 - 01:32
- - Prof   Dont know, now I out of my depth so I will probabl...   Thu, 18 Jan 2007 - 21:18
- - The Rookie   I trust you raised that at your hearing........alt...   Sat, 20 Jan 2007 - 05:01
- - Prof   Graham Walker has quoted 1500 plus vat for the req...   Tue, 30 Jan 2007 - 22:44
|- - Mika   QUOTE (Prof @ Tue, 30 Jan 2007 - 22...   Wed, 7 Feb 2007 - 13:50
- - popdog28   Hope u manage to get the sponsorship prof. I have ...   Wed, 7 Feb 2007 - 14:26
- - Prof   popdog28, what reasons did they give, were they hi...   Thu, 8 Feb 2007 - 19:48
- - popdog28   Reasons.......I think you are just being plain sil...   Fri, 9 Feb 2007 - 16:01
|- - jeffreyarcher   QUOTE (popdog28 @ Fri, 9 Feb 2007 - 16...   Fri, 9 Feb 2007 - 22:59
- - Prof   Yup JA and such a point was clearly made by the Sh...   Sun, 11 Feb 2007 - 14:25
- - Prof   Popdog If your up for it, subject to what happens...   Sun, 11 Feb 2007 - 14:29
- - popdog28   Prof, I have mailed u. The opinion of being ...   Mon, 12 Feb 2007 - 14:17
- - Prof   Ok Just back. Two steps forward and one back. Di...   Mon, 12 Feb 2007 - 14:54
- - The Rookie   I think the recent high court appearence by Mr Gar...   Mon, 12 Feb 2007 - 15:01
- - Prof   Let the court know I had the Preston Transcript bu...   Mon, 12 Feb 2007 - 15:12
- - Prof   Ok as from 2am this morning, I have lodged with th...   Tue, 13 Feb 2007 - 10:21
- - Prof   Ahhh some success....... My three petitions, abov...   Wed, 14 Feb 2007 - 11:15
- - Prof   Crafty beggars, PF passed it back to the camera sa...   Thu, 15 Feb 2007 - 23:15
- - Prof   Oh what fun, quick report from this morning's ...   Fri, 16 Feb 2007 - 09:19
- - Prof   Well, back again. On fire today Imsoooooo Hoooot...   Mon, 19 Feb 2007 - 13:19
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