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County Court Claim Form Received
PCNdriverhelp
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 10:38
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Hi,

A driver parked in a small car park where they had a permit for a privately owned housing association car park but they were in a hire vehicle. As keeper I have received CC documents from Gladstones who have now issued on it and I have 14 days to file a defence. Is it too late to file or defence or do I just cop up and pay? I have proof I had a permit, and I didn't think JD Parking Ltd have the authority to take me to court?

This post has been edited by PCNdriverhelp: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 17:46
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post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 10:38
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kommando
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 10:51
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Edit your post so the driver is not identified.

As the car was hired they no doubt would have delivered the original NTK without the hire papers and so cannot invoke POFA2012 and make the keeper liable.

Were you visiting a leaseholder or tenant ?
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Macapaca
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 10:52
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No you don't have to pay and yes you have time to issue a defence. It would help if you posted some more background to this. Presumably you received a PCN and lots of letters which you have ignored until now? Post up the original PCN so we know what you are dealing with.
Is the permit for you or a specified car? What are the terms of the permit? The terms may trump a PCN.
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Eljayjay
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:10
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On the assumption that you are a tenant, what does your tenancy agreement say about parking and third party rights?

If you can post your tenancy agreement in its entirety (after redacting your personal data).
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PCNdriverhelp
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:27
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Background:The house is a jewish students union house and permits are sold by a local rep who works at the house, or they can also be purchased on the UJS website. I purchased mine on the UJS website and was told I would be given a printed permit. This took some time and eventually I was given a round standard parking permit and asked to write my own reg plate on it. The permit did not state any terms and conditions. Tickets are now not given out for the car park and there is no way at the moment to buy them online. The car park does not now hand out any parking fines but still has the signs up.

The driver was not a visitor, just parks there. Unfortunately I do not have the original ticket or the NtK - had a little empty out and the paper work went with it!

My Email Receipt:

Dear ---------,

Thank you for your purchase from UJS.

Your reference number is ----------.

Please print this receipt or keep a note of this number.

Your items:
----------------------------------------------------------
Item: Leeds Hillel Car Park Pass Wed 14 Sep 2016 - Annual pass
Qty: 1
Price: £75.00
Total: £75.00
----------------------------------------------------------
Sub Total: £75.00
----------


Leeds Hillel Car Park Pass Wed 14 Sep 2016 - Annual pass
----------------------------------------------------------
Thank you. Please do not forget to pass your registration details to the Warden.



PS - I admit this is difficult without the original documents. I am kicking myself I do not have the Ntk or any of the letters

This post has been edited by PCNdriverhelp: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:32
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PCNdriverhelp
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:51
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QUOTE (kommando @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:51) *
Edit your post so the driver is not identified.

As the car was hired they no doubt would have delivered the original NTK without the hire papers and so cannot invoke POFA2012 and make the keeper liable.

Were you visiting a leaseholder or tenant ?


I don't remember ever receiving any hire papers with the NtK thats for sure!
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Macapaca
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:58
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Ok. So your defence is that the driver had authority to park. That email gives the driver that authority. It says nothing about displaying a permit. It would help further if you could be clear about whether the pass covers you or any driver/car.
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PCNdriverhelp
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 12:19
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QUOTE (Macapaca @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 12:58) *
Ok. So your defence is that the driver had authority to park. That email gives the driver that authority. It says nothing about displaying a permit. It would help further if you could be clear about whether the pass covers you or any driver/car.


The permit does not state either way, and neither did the website. It is pretty relaxed there! An advert to buy a permit was posted on the facebook group with an online link (The advert is still up). After purchasing the ticket online and receiving the email above, I met the warden and he just gave me a blank permit (small round standard permit) and told me to write my reg plate on it and put in my car windscreen. Not sure if it is worth noting that it took me a few weeks of asking to get my printed permit

This post has been edited by PCNdriverhelp: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 12:27
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Macapaca
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 12:25
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As it doesn't stipulate any specific constraints then I see no reason why you cannot use that email as clear evidence that the car was parked their with full and adequate authority!

For good measure it is also worth looking at the POFA non-compliance as well! i.e.e if you hit them with two silver bullets then the first one does the trick and the second is good sport! Happy shooting!
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ostell
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 14:33
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This is a hire care so they have to go to the registered keeper to get the details of the hirer/keeper, you. They then write to the hirer with the hirer's details on the Notice to Keeper/PCN. With that NTK/Notice to hirer they have to include copies of the hire documents and the original NTK to the hire company. Most do not and therefore they cannot hold the keeper/hirer liable for the actions of the driver at the time. If they do not know who was driving that they are up that proverbial creek.

Get editing all your posts so that they identity of the driver cannot be inferred. Use "the driver....." etc.

Here's POFA . Look at section 14 (2) (a).


What have Gladstones actually said to you? Have you had a "Letter before Claim" or similar wording?

Have you received a claim form from the County Court with a password on it?

If you have a claim form from the court then you use the details on the form and the password to acknowledge the claim online. Do not put anything into the defence. This gives you 33 days from the date of issue to prepare a defence.

Your defence will be that as they have failed to comply with the requirements of POFA, namely failed to produce the documents prescribed by section 14 (2) (a) and therefore cannot tansfer liability from the driver at the time to the keeper/hirer at the time.

Write to Gladstones and request that they supply all the documents that intend to use in court and send them before 7 days. point out that as they have started a claim then they must have these documents to hand and there should be no reason for the delay.
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PCNdriverhelp
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 08:31
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 15:33) *
This is a hire care so they have to go to the registered keeper to get the details of the hirer/keeper, you. They then write to the hirer with the hirer's details on the Notice to Keeper/PCN. With that NTK/Notice to hirer they have to include copies of the hire documents and the original NTK to the hire company. Most do not and therefore they cannot hold the keeper/hirer liable for the actions of the driver at the time. If they do not know who was driving that they are up that proverbial creek.

Get editing all your posts so that they identity of the driver cannot be inferred. Use "the driver....." etc.

Here's POFA . Look at section 14 (2) (a).


What have Gladstones actually said to you? Have you had a "Letter before Claim" or similar wording?

Have you received a claim form from the County Court with a password on it?

If you have a claim form from the court then you use the details on the form and the password to acknowledge the claim online. Do not put anything into the defence. This gives you 33 days from the date of issue to prepare a defence.

Your defence will be that as they have failed to comply with the requirements of POFA, namely failed to produce the documents prescribed by section 14 (2) (a) and therefore cannot tansfer liability from the driver at the time to the keeper/hirer at the time.

Write to Gladstones and request that they supply all the documents that intend to use in court and send them before 7 days. point out that as they have started a claim then they must have these documents to hand and there should be no reason for the delay.


I have had a letter before claim, and now a county court document. I will look for the password tonight when I get home and do as you say, and also write to Gladstones for the documents. Thank you
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PCNdriverhelp
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 17:43
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I am not sure I want to rely on not receiving the hire agreement as I do not have any original letters so I don't want to risk it, incase they did actually send it. I am just writing to Gladstones now asking that they supply me with all the documents they intend to use in court - would this be sent with it? As an update, the address on the county court document is incorrect (street name) however it has found its way to me. Should I mention this in my defence, or possibly say this to Gladstones for when they send back the information?
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cabbyman
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 17:52
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If they are going to prove their case with the relevant documents, the copies of the hire agreement and the NtK sent to the hire company are extremely relevant. If they are not included in their bundle, they can't prove they were compliant with PoFA.



--------------------
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PCNdriverhelp
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 18:02
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 18:52) *
If they are going to prove their case with the relevant documents, the copies of the hire agreement and the NtK sent to the hire company are extremely relevant. If they are not included in their bundle, they can't prove they were compliant with PoFA.


Does this sound ok:


Dear Sirs,


I refer to a county court claim form issued on the 5 September 2018 for which I am the defendant. I request that you supply me with all documents you intend to use in court in support of this claim and send them within 7 days of receipt of this letter. As this claim has already been started, I expect you have these documents to hand and that there shall be no reason for any delay.

I also note that you have the incorrect address on the county court claim form and would be grateful if this could be amended to avoid any further delays in myself receiving any documents.

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emanresu
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 06:06
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QUOTE
I also note that you have the incorrect address on the county court claim form and would be grateful if this could be amended to avoid any further delays in myself receiving any documents.



I also note that you have the incorrect address on the county court claim form. The correct address for service of documents is ....

When you Acknowledge, there is also a space for the service address and that is the one that they must use. So the letter (with proof of posting) and the Acknowledgement will do the job. If they use the old address, then it will be up to the court to decide if they have been abusing a court process.
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PCNdriverhelp
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 18:45
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So I have given Gladstone's time to respond and had nothing through the post. The particulars of claim just says:

'The driver of the vehicle registration ***** incurred the parking charge on ****** for breaching the terms of parking on the land at ********. The defendant was driving the vehicle and/or is the keeper of vehicle. AND THE CLAIMANT CLAIMS £160.00 for parking charges / damages and indemnity costs if applicable, together with interest of £23.55 pursuant to s69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at 8% pa, continuing to Judgment at £.0.4 per day'

How do I provide a defence when this is the only particulars they have supplied?! (no copy of the contract or a bundle). What should my defence consist of? Any help in drafting my defence is appreciated!
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Redivi
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 19:52
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Then the first point of the defence is that the Particulars of Claim disclose no facts that enable the case to be defended, in breach of the Civil Procedure Rules CPR 16.4
Your request to the Claimant's solicitor to provide documents to clarify its case has been ignored and you invite the court to strike out the claim for failure to disclose a cause of action.
In the alternative, you request that the court orders the Claimant to provide Further and Better Particulars of Claim

In order to assist the court, you believe that the claim concerns PCN **** and you have attempted to write a defence on this assumption
You reserve the right to amend the defence if the Claimant provides Further and Better Particulars

There's a simple reason you've been ignored
Gladstones has no idea what the case is about because it only ever asks its client for any documents after the defence has been received

This post has been edited by Redivi: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 19:53
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PCNdriverhelp
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 20:47
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 20:52) *
Then the first point of the defence is that the Particulars of Claim disclose no facts that enable the case to be defended, in breach of the Civil Procedure Rules CPR 16.4
Your request to the Claimant's solicitor to provide documents to clarify its case has been ignored and you invite the court to strike out the claim for failure to disclose a cause of action.
In the alternative, you request that the court orders the Claimant to provide Further and Better Particulars of Claim

In order to assist the court, you believe that the claim concerns PCN **** and you have attempted to write a defence on this assumption
You reserve the right to amend the defence if the Claimant provides Further and Better Particulars

There's a simple reason you've been ignored
Gladstones has no idea what the case is about because it only ever asks its client for any documents after the defence has been received


Thanks - I will start drafting my defence. I also found what I believe to be the first letter from Gladstones - not exactly helpful in the information are they!....

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ostell
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 21:10
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That letter was, in fact, from DRP debt collectors using Gladstones letterhead. Look who they are asking you to pay.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 07:58
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So you submit a catch all defence, alleging everything and anytinbg - standing, signage, lack of POFA compliance (presuming the driver was never identified) - even better if you can assert the Defendant defeninitely was not the driver.
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