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CPM Parking Charge Notice, How should I respond when I have gone past the appeal deadline date
Woofiedog123
post Thu, 23 Apr 2020 - 21:46
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Hi all,

I wonder if someone experienced could advise me.

I received this PCN through the letterbox the day lock-down started on the 23rd March, even though it was issued on the 18th March. So I completely forgot about it, due to all the commotion over C19 and the isolate and lock-down rules, which has dominated our lives since then.

I received another reminder last week, and realise now that I have forgotten to inform the driver who will have missed the two week half price payment deadline and now I, as registered keeper, am being asked for £100 - the full charge. The Notice does still ask me to contact the driver but that they will go after the keeper (me) if I don't disclose who they are. Can they do this?

The driver claims they parked in this spot, as clearly evidenced in the photo, but does not remember the car obstructing any roads in the way the notice claims. The road to the left behind the car rear was completely clear as was the road adjacent (you can also see that on Googlemaps photos of the same road). Other cars are parked in the same road in the same way - a bit further up too. It is a road the services a nearby county court who told the driver that they could park there.

The PCN references the clear notices on display, but the driver claims they don't remember seeing any notices saying that they could not park in the spot they had parked in. The parking spot was also a long way from where they live, which is nowhere near Hastings where the contravention allegation took place. Due to lock-down the driver did not feel it was essential travel to go all the way back to check and photograph for the signage either.

Myself, as the keeper, has not responded. I now wish to defend my position, should further action materialise, by saying that I received the Notice at the time but I was unable to substantiate the allegation fully by checking for myself that the Notices were clear in the way the PCN states. So I cannot evidence it for myself. As keeper, I have no intention of disclosing who the driver is, should I follow this notice up even after the appeal date is past.

What do you think I should do. I don't think they can bring a case, due to the odd circumstances we're living in.

Here is the original noticed attached.



This is the second one I received:



This post has been edited by Woofiedog123: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 - 15:31
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post Thu, 23 Apr 2020 - 21:46
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Jlc
post Thu, 23 Apr 2020 - 22:41
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They have 6 years to bring a claim.

It looks like the driver parked right under their signs.

They will reject any appeal you make anyway.

Having said all of that their court claim is not guaranteed success - not least their apparent abuse of process of claiming £160.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 - 16:47


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Fri, 24 Apr 2020 - 08:57
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Let's see the first one you received. Google street view for that area is dated 2016 but just before entering that road, in the 2019 view, there is an unreadable sign attached to the one way sign.

If that is a sign saying no parking then it is a forbidding sign. That is there is no offer of a contract to park. No contract = no breach = no charge.

Check with Hastings council about the status of the road, it may be on line. Seems strange that the courts, police station and fire station are on a privately owned road. It could be an over zealous attendant from one of the car parks trying to get some extra cash.

Post up the first PCN you received, suitably redacted so that we can see if there were POFA fails

And get editing your first post.

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 - 09:00
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Woofiedog123
post Fri, 24 Apr 2020 - 14:54
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Jlc


Thanks for the heads up. I have just made the amendments you point out but don't you need to amend your post too? Otherwise you are giving the game away by keeping it up in its present form by referencing 'you's and including your entire last sentence, irrespective of my edits. So could I please ask you to either delete the post entirely or remove the parts that reference the part in my original post that needed editing. Otherwise, I assume that they will still make the connection using your post to do it.

Why is there an abuse of process for claiming £160? I am confused about what you mean.

Thanks

This post has been edited by Woofiedog123: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 - 15:14
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Woofiedog123
post Fri, 24 Apr 2020 - 15:16
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Here is the original CPN, you all requested I put up. I have put it in the first post with the most recent one underneath, as originally seen.

Hope you can find a way out for me.

Thanks.

This post has been edited by Woofiedog123: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 - 15:33
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Jlc
post Fri, 24 Apr 2020 - 16:48
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QUOTE (Woofiedog123 @ Fri, 24 Apr 2020 - 15:54) *
Why is there an abuse of process for claiming £160? I am confused about what you mean.

Lots of courts are now striking out claims in regards to the mythical £60 they charge on top... See here.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Woofiedog123
post Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 15:15
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So, should I just wait until they write to me again or threaten court action, or write back to them claiming that their additional threat of charges nullifies the entire claim? I don't want any CCJs. It's not worth it.


Just a simple answer will do, not reams of case studies to read.
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Jlc
post Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 16:00
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QUOTE (Woofiedog123 @ Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 16:15) *
So, should I just wait until they write to me again or threaten court action, or write back to them claiming that their additional threat of charges nullifies the entire claim? I don't want any CCJs. It's not worth it.

You do know that even if it goes to court and you lost you'd only get a CCJ if you didn't then pay?

QUOTE (Woofiedog123 @ Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 16:15) *
Just a simple answer will do, not reams of case studies to read.

If you want simple they will sue you and you will lose without effort.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Umkomaas
post Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 16:08
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 16:00) *
QUOTE (Woofiedog123 @ Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 16:15) *
So, should I just wait until they write to me again or threaten court action, or write back to them claiming that their additional threat of charges nullifies the entire claim? I don't want any CCJs. It's not worth it.

You do know that even if it goes to court and you lost you'd only get a CCJ if you didn't then pay?

QUOTE (Woofiedog123 @ Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 16:15) *
Just a simple answer will do, not reams of case studies to read.

If you want simple they will sue you and you will lose without effort.

And 'will' is the operative word. UKCPM are the country's most litigious operator. They will sue anyone with breath left in them. Can't be much more simple.
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Jlc
post Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 16:22
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QUOTE (Umkomaas @ Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 17:08) *
And 'will' is the operative word. UKCPM are the country's most litigious operator. They will sue anyone with breath left in them. Can't be much more simple.

That's true - even beating ParkingEye in hearings!


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Woofiedog123
post Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 22:39
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Can someone here who is an expert give me a sensible reply please.

I am confused. First there is a lot of noise about the Parking Notice having something attached to it that could be nullified in the courts. Then someone says I am going to be sued and lose.

I haven't a clue where I stand or what I should do.

Could someone else advise me on what they would do - in simple straightforward language - if they were in my shoes.

I find the responses so far very unhelpful and confusing.
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ostell
post Sun, 26 Apr 2020 - 00:56
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Everybody is trying to get to the whole truth. What did the signs say, s the road adopted by the local council, what are the dates on your first ticket, you've redacted them.

They are saying you will have a claim raised against you. Nobody said you would lose.

If/when it goes to court you will only get a CCJ against you if you lose and if you don't pay within 30 days

How about asking them for copies of the signage that they allege created the contract?
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Jlc
post Sun, 26 Apr 2020 - 07:20
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QUOTE (Woofiedog123 @ Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 23:39) *
Can someone here who is an expert give me a sensible reply please.
I am confused. First there is a lot of noise about the Parking Notice having something attached to it that could be nullified in the courts. Then someone says I am going to be sued and lose.
I haven't a clue where I stand or what I should do.
Could someone else advise me on what they would do - in simple straightforward language - if they were in my shoes.
I find the responses so far very unhelpful and confusing.

In as simple terms as I can put it:

They will reject ANY appeal you make. (Any appeal is to show you are following their charade of a process)
Eventually they'll raise a court claim.
That claim is likely to have escalated to a point where the court may strike it out. (As an abuse of process)
If not, the matter could go to a hearing and you have to research, write a defence and attend court.
If you win, then great.
If you lose, then you may be liable for around £200-250.
If you pay this within 1 month then you won't have a CCJ against you.

But to fight it you have to put some effort in. Pictures of signs, researching status of the road, asking them to supply information etc.

This can be won but there's no magic words that make this go away quickly. When you park on private land always ensure you look for signs and abide by them to avoid all this hassle.

If you're not up for a fight then chalk it down to experience and pay the discounted amount.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 26 Apr 2020 - 08:59
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??

What is their alleged cause of action? Breach of contract.

Contract between whom? The driver and the landowner, both of whom are effectively side-stepped, the owner by appointing and agent(the PPC), the driver by virtue of PoFA if it applies.

What contract? The one represented by the Ts and Cs on the sign.

Is what is alleged a breach of contract? Clearly not, it is a prohibition. No contract exists.

What is PoFA and has it any bearing on the alleged breach? It's a means of establishing/attributing liability: it does NOT bear on the basic alleged breach.

How may an aggrieved person pursue their claim? Legitimately.....through the courts. Otherwise by sending baseless demands.

What help is available? The experts here can help inform you whether a contract existed (when their minds are turned to it!) and therefore you need to provide those facts, not box and cox, pirouette and otherwise play about with procedure.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 - 09:04
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Jlc
post Sun, 26 Apr 2020 - 09:14
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A forbidding sign is one element of a defence.

But these are not simple legal matters for most to fully understand and private parking is actually a very complex set of legal matters. (For such trifling sums)

It does not change the fact that any appeal will be rejected and that they are likely to issue a court claim.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Woofiedog123
post Sun, 26 Apr 2020 - 20:07
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Ive decided to write to them the following. I think this will put a halt to the matter.

I received your PCN on the 16th April, and will not be notifying you of the Driver's whereabouts. There are valid reasons for me not paying it on behalf of the driver, as the vehicle keeper either.

Lack of reliable evidence to supports the alleged contravention.

1. The images attached to the photographic evidence contained within the PCN are so blurred as to be completely unreadable.
The photos you have also supplied on the Sussex Council website, which I hoped would be clearer, are also unusable to support your case.

Out of the four put up online, the only Notice that is readable is not proveable as the one that was positioned or relevant to where my car was parked in your CPN photos. The CEO could have photographed it anywhere. My car is not photographed as directly underneath it. On the fourth photograph there is a weird superimposed image of a long stem with a small sign on it pointing backward - again that sign is unreadable and may not relate to the one that is readable with only part of the pole showing (but no car underneath). That last image of the stem with small sign shadowing my windscreen could easily be photoshopped or be a different sign altogether and possibly unrelating to the blurred images in the CPN which I also can't read.. Therefore, you have no sufficient evidence to support your case, should it be challenged in a court of law.

Therefore, should the matter come to court, if you decide not to drop the matter entirely - as I hope you now will - the DJ would have to assume that you acted in good faith and believe that there is a link between all of these images that points to a contravention. In fact, no reliably exists to satisfy 51% on a balance of probabilities as you have no clear evidence to support your case at all, which is what any defendant would successfully argue, especially when there are other cars parked alongside mine on the same road and there is a police station and fire station nearby presumably parking on the same private land (this was evident from Google-maps).

What is clear from the the photographic evidence supporting the alleged offence, was that the driver was not parked on a yellow line (as clearly visible in the photo and supported by google-maps images taken in 2016), nor was the driver blocking the road to their rear/left (in the photo) or the road adjacent to the vehicle offside leading up to the white building (as evidenced in the PCN and online photographs). Therefore, the signage you claimed was there, just adjacent to the car on the nearside which the driver should have heeded, makes no sense at all and does not in any way support the written alleged contravention in your PCN.

2. Had CPM UK has made an error of judgement in sending out this PCN, both the driver and I, as the keeper of the vehicle, were fully entitled to check the voracity of your evidence. We were unable to clarify what these notices did say to support the photographic evidence upon which you rely online and in the PCN. We only have your word for it that there was a genuine contravention meriting the charge of £100 (half within 14 days, which has now gone - leaving a £100 invoice to pay).

The driver and I, as the keeper, was unable to visit the site in question, just to check and photograph the signs to support or challenge your photographic evidence, due to the rules pertaining to lock-down since 23rd March. The Notice was only issued on the 18th. With postage deliveries being what they are, I would have received this Notice no sooner than the 23rd and unable to act on it until the 24th at the earliest. So even if the driver or I, as the keeper, had appealed in time, according to your PCN rules, by then, the lock-down rules relevant to the whole of Britain were explicit: 1. you can only travel to buy essential food or food for the vulnerable. 2. You can only travel if you are going to work, unless working from home, 3. You can only go out once a day to exercise. There was no invitation for people to leave their homes to travel long journeys by public transport or by car to evidence gather or substantiate evidence to support an Appeal for a private PCN invoice, especially when such a journey was essential in the absence of any other reliable evidence to support your case..

Therefore, either within the 21 days specified for making an Appeal, and now since your follow up 16th April notice, both the Driver and I am still am unable to put in a compelling Appeal in the absence of any other reliable evidence that would make such a journey unnecessary. It was very necessary to satisfy both the Driver and myself, the keeper, that your photographic evidence could be verified some other way.

Given the circumstances with C19 lockdown, it was incumbent upon CPM UK to ensure that the evidence they relied upon to support their PCN's alleged contravention - both in the CPN and online (Sussex Council's website), was sufficiently reliable and unchallengable so that the driver or I, as the keeper, could properly assess whether it was worth Appealing within 21 days rather than paying the charge and putting it down to experience. You have denied both the driver and myself that chance and so denied yourselves too of enforcing this PCN.

Therefore, I regret to say that I will not be forwarding the details to the Driver or cooperating with CPM UK at any stage relating to this matter. It seems clear to me that you have insufficient evidence to support your claim and that the driver and myself, as keeper, were also unable to substantiate your claim by visiting the site again to see the signage relied upon in the CPN and online.

I therefore, invite you to drop the penalty demand of £100.

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Jlc
post Sun, 26 Apr 2020 - 21:00
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QUOTE (Woofiedog123 @ Sun, 26 Apr 2020 - 21:07) *
I think this will put a halt to the matter.

Ok, come back when they've rejected that.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Umkomaas
post Sun, 26 Apr 2020 - 21:05
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Looking forward to their response, if they even bother to read any of it.

This post has been edited by Umkomaas: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 - 21:06
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Woofiedog123
post Mon, 25 May 2020 - 21:24
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sun, 26 Apr 2020 - 22:00) *
QUOTE (Woofiedog123 @ Sun, 26 Apr 2020 - 21:07) *
I think this will put a halt to the matter.

Ok, come back when they've rejected that.



Here is the latest instalment. I got a Debt Collection letter. What do I do now. I seem to remember that their efforts to recover this Penalty Charge might be thwarted due to them overcharging a reasonable amount - from £100 to £160 without explanation.

Here is the notification attached.



This post has been edited by Woofiedog123: Mon, 25 May 2020 - 21:29
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ostell
post Mon, 25 May 2020 - 22:18
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As with all DRP you ignore
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