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PCN Fulham - Stopping in a box
daxilic
post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 17:38
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At morning rush hour in Fulham, London I was at a set of lights at a t-junction needing to go right (exact location details below). Even when the lights went green I couldn't go right as there was no space to enter the short piece of road after the box, which had another set of lights. I must have been waiting at least 5 minutes to go right and the lights had changed about three times. Due to the way the lights were synced and the heavy traffic it was impossible to go right without stopping in the box and I was holding up a lot of traffic behind me, with cars wanting to go left - which they could have if I wasn't waiting to go right. Because of this a few drivers behind were heavily beeping me and eventually I gave in and joined the road after the box, with my car in the box (not blocking any other traffic). I'm certain that I would have been stuck at the lights holding everyone up behind me for a good 5-10 more minutes.

I suppose to get around this I could have gone left then somewhere down the road turned around to come back on myself, but in London rush hour that probably would have cost me 20 extra minutes which I didn't have, plus I really shouldn't have to do that. Ideally there should be two lanes - one for going left, one for right, but that wasn't the case.

Of course today I receive the PCN for £65 (reduced amount). Have I got any chance of appealing here or was it a case of s**t happens?


Location:

Bagleys Lane where it meets New King's Road

Location on Google Maps




Here's a diagram to show the problem:




The PCN letter:







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post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 17:38
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stamfordman
post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 17:56
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Looks like a typical H&F overzealous PCN - the video might help here and as you've left the details I've requested it for you as it's not up yet.

Personally I would have turned left to get out of there - it was the safer if inconvenient thing to do.

But if you're up for it an adjudicator may well find this a compelling argument.

Here's a still that shows a wider view - are you sure the far right lane was also blocked?



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 23 May 2018 - 17:57
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 18:07
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This case suggests that you could claim the right turn exemption. Personally i would agree

2180148403

This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The alleged contravention occurred in Talgarth Road at the junction with Butterwick at 3.47pm on 26 January 2018.
Paragraph 7(1) of Part II of Schedule 19 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 states that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. It is an offence to enter the box without a clear exit and to then stop in the box due to stationary vehicles in front.
Paragraph 7(2) states that this prohibition does not apply to any person causing a vehicle to enter a box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of making a right turn out of the box and stopping the vehicle for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary waiting to complete the right turn.
Mr Bennett appeals because he says that the car entered the box to make a right turn out of the box and that the vehicle stopped in the box due to other traffic waiting to complete the right turn.
I have reviewed the CCTV footage in this case. The footage shows that Mr Bennett's car stopped within the box to make a right turn out of the box and was prevented from completing the right turn by a stationary vehicle in front which had also made the right turn.
The Council, in its case summary, states that Mr Bennett's vehicle was turning right but that it was not stopped by oncoming traffic.
The wording of the exemption in Paragraph 7(2) is expressed in the alternative. The exemption applies to allow the vehicle to stop in the box for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary waiting to complete the right turn. In other words, it is not necessary for both conditions to exist for the exemption to apply. It is sufficient that the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by other vehicles which are stationary waiting to complete the right turn. That is, in my judgement, the correct reading of the statutory provision. There is no requirement for the exit to be blocked by oncoming traffic. It follows that the alleged contravention did not occur.
Whilst I accept that the vehicle in front of Mr Bennett's had technically completed the right turn, it would make a nonsense of Paragraph 7(2) for the right turn exemption not to apply just because the next vehicle making the right turn manages to clear the box rather than having to stop within it.


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daxilic
post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 18:09
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 23 May 2018 - 18:56) *
Looks like a typical H&F overzealous PCN - the video might help here and as you've left the details I've requested it for you as it's not up yet.

Personally I would have turned left to get out of there - it was the safer if inconvenient thing to do.

But if you're up for it an adjudicator may well find this a compelling argument.

Here's a still that shows a wider view - are you sure the far right lane was also blocked?




How did you do that? I logged into the page on the H&F website and it displays no images or videos, just a button to pay.

True, although I was already running late for work I couldn't afford to waste anymore time.

How would I go about doing that? Sorry I've never gone that far before.

Looking at that picture it appears the other lane had space, although just after where the bus is that lane goes left, where as the lane I needed goes straight. It would have been a nightmare trying to get back into that lane - although in retrospect it's better than a £65 fine.

This post has been edited by daxilic: Wed, 23 May 2018 - 18:10
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stamfordman
post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 18:49
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Let's see what the video shows. I'll check tomorrow to see if they've uploaded it.
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stamfordman
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 11:09
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Oh dear - the video shows two other vehicles behind you that cleared the box by going into the far lane. As you suspected... that's what you had to do.

You can still appeal of course on the basis of lane discipline. But being in the wrong lane is always better than being in the box.

Weirdly the video actually goes on for 4 mins and the operators tracks your car down the road.




This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 24 May 2018 - 11:30
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 14:39
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Stamf

Can you link the full vid, where and when the camera picks up the OP's reg might be important


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stamfordman
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 15:03
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This is most of video - not a gif so click through:



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 24 May 2018 - 15:04
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 15:08
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 16:03) *
This is most of video - not a gif so click through:



telling me page not found


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John U.K.
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 15:08
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Link not working sad.gif
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stamfordman
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 15:09
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Too fast off the mark PMB - I resized it - it should be OK now.
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John U.K.
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 15:12
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Sorry, Stamf. Flickr still showing

Page Not Found

Oops! Looks like you followed a bad link.
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stamfordman
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 15:14
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oops - now it doesn't. I'll sort it out.

Try this:

hammyell by stamfordman, on Flickr

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 24 May 2018 - 15:17
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 15:18
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There can be no doubt as to the car. i would still go with the right turn exemption


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daxilic
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 17:34
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They sent me the video too and I've uploaded here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=282kHyMV0Fk

It is strange how he tracks me up the road way after the junction, he could have missed someone else stopping in the box! Maybe he's not a fan of chavy Honda Civics and was really determined to catch me.

It looks bad and it's quite clear I could have gone into the outer lane, although what if it was blocked - would that make any difference?

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 16:18) *
There can be no doubt as to the car. i would still go with the right turn exemption


How do you mean right turn exemption?
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 18:29
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QUOTE (daxilic @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 18:34) *
They sent me the video too and I've uploaded here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=282kHyMV0Fk

It is strange how he tracks me up the road way after the junction, he could have missed someone else stopping in the box! Maybe he's not a fan of chavy Honda Civics and was really determined to catch me.

It looks bad and it's quite clear I could have gone into the outer lane, although what if it was blocked - would that make any difference?

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 16:18) *
There can be no doubt as to the car. i would still go with the right turn exemption


How do you mean right turn exemption?


see rule 174

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-cod...road-159-to-203

I could link or quote the regs, but this is what a motorist is expected to know. My first post if you read it is an adjudication on a similar situation at a box junction.


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daxilic
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 18:39
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Ah I see. So you're saying "However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right." could apply in my case?

Yes apologies for not replying on your first post, I did read it but didn't fully understand it.
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Neil B
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 18:47
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Which other vehicle was stationary and waiting to turn right?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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daxilic
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 19:35
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 19:47) *
Which other vehicle was stationary and waiting to turn right?


Well this is what I'm not clear on. The vehicle in front of me when I stopped in the box may have come from either my direction (making a right turn and clearing the box) or come from the road coming from the left (straight forward in his case). Even if he was making a right turn from my road it doesn't show that on the video footage.

The reason I stopped in the box was cause I was blocking traffic behind from going left due to the design of the junction, but I'm guessing there is no legislation for that.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 19:40
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QUOTE (daxilic @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 20:35) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 19:47) *
Which other vehicle was stationary and waiting to turn right?


Well this is what I'm not clear on. The vehicle in front of me when I stopped in the box may have come from either my direction (making a right turn and clearing the box) or come from the road coming from the left (straight forward in his case). Even if he was making a right turn from my road it doesn't show that on the video footage.

The reason I stopped in the box was cause I was blocking traffic behind from going left due to the design of the junction, but I'm guessing there is no legislation for that.


That's where the purposive view comes in, as taken by the adjudicator in the case quoted.


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