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PCN for parking 3 mins over time expired on visitor parking permit
golzii07
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 21:10
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Hi
I received a parking ticket for parking in a resident's bay with a valid visitor's permit 3 minutes after the time had expired. Can I challenge this using the 10 minute grace period or is this only used for paid parking?

I did send an informal challenge via email which they never responded to and now they have sent me a Notice to Owner asking for the full payment which I think is incredibly unfair.

Is the council allowed to do this?

Thanks
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post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 21:10
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 21:14
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As is usual post council pics , PCn and your challenge and the NTO = a GSV of the location
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DancingDad
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 21:37
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QUOTE (golzii07 @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 21:10) *
......... Can I challenge this using the 10 minute grace period .........


Yes
As long as lawfully parked in a designated parking place, 10 minute grace period applies.

But post up what you have and any council photos so we can check
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Jo Carn
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 10:13
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This is the quote you might want to use:

TMA 2004: The Secretary of State’s Statutory Guidance to the Local Authorities on the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions 2015. Section 8.11 states:
The law requires that a penalty charge must not be issued to a vehicle which has stayed parked in a parking place on a road or in a local authority's car park beyond the permitted parking period for a period of time not exceeding 10 minutes. The grace period applies to on-street and off-street parking places provided under traffic orders, whether the period of parking is paid for or free. Any penalty charge during the 10-minute grace period would be illegal, unless the vehicle itself is parked unlawfully.
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 10:46
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OP---hope you kept the voucher. I would visit the Council's website and see if the CEO took photos of said voucher.

Mick
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golzii07
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 19:40
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Hi Guys
Thanks very much for responding - I will definitely use the TMA 2004. Here are the photos just in case I am mistaken

Just to recap I parked in a residential bay with a correctly filled out Visitors parking permit that was 3 minutes expired and was given a parking ticket (19) Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket, or after the expiry of paid for time.

Thanks again

This post has been edited by golzii07: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 19:41
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 19:59
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Whoa whoa --let's get this issue nailed before you send in anything.

What are the terms of the permit? So many hours? No return? I notice that there are two entries for 13/11--has that caused a problem?

If it is a 3 minute overstay you are home and dry but a Code 19 the contravention can be read in several different ways.

Mick
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DancingDad
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 21:14
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I think we have seen those permits before.
Valid by the hour and you fill in for each hour.
But Op needs to confirm.
Are the terms on the back, if so we need to see them please
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hcandersen
post Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 06:36
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And the PCN, both sides, and the challenge, including date.


OP, you're getting too far too fast, post the basics. Here's the PCN, here's my challenge, including date sent, and here's the NTO, and here are the council's photos.. and then we can worry about the intricacies of the SoS's guidance and regulations. mellow.gif

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 13:07
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golzii07
post Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 11:15
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Here are the basics

The photos from the council are in the previous thread I posted along with the front of the parking ticket. Here is my PCN.

It is not letting me attach the other two photos as I don't have enough size left

But the back of the permit states

The permit is only valid in the zone indicated
Each line is valid for 1 hour from start time
Permits are only valid in any resident of shared bay where a resident permit would normally be valid
All entries must be made in ink
East line must be completed in full (ditto marks to indicate 'same as above' are not acceptable
Any attempt to alter any entry will render that line invalid
Permit valid on vehicles up to 1950kgs MAM
Purchase of permit does not guarantee a parking space
Permit must be displayed on dashboard in a manner that allows for all details on front side to be visible from the exterior of the vehicle
Failure to comply with all instructions may result in a Penalty Charge Notice being issued and/or additional enforcement action being taken
The permit has been produced to allow it to be split and used in a second vehicle


Here is my informal challenge


Dear Serco
I received a parking ticket at 14:33 on Abinger Road on 13th November. I dispute the Traffic Warden's timing as according to my watch it was 14:30pm the correct time my parking ran out. Please supply sufficient evident that the machine was calibrated to the correct time.

Also on in 2015 a new law was passed to give motorists such as myself a 10 minute grace period to stop the traffic warden as in my case standing at my car waiting for the time to run out.

New government regulation and Department of Transport statutory guidance* say that any Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) issued before expiry of the 10-minute grace period would be illegal, unless the vehicle itself is parked unlawfully, such as when the motorist has not paid any required parking fee or displayed a parking ticket where required.

This will inevitably be appealed.
Yours faithfully

Hope this is enough to determine whether I can challenge the 10 minute grace period.
Thanks
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John U.K.
post Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 11:27
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QUOTE
It is not letting me attach the other two photos as I don't have enough size left
Try this:
Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:
Some are having problems with Tinypic at he moment.. try Flickr, where the BBcodes are concealed behind the curly arrow (click on it) for sharing.

Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems. Thera are other sites, such as Flickr, which enable you to paste the BBCodes into your post here.
STAGE 1 takes care of resizing. If you use Tinypic for Stage 2, on the left each image in Tinypic is a list of links. Highlight and copy the entire link 'for forums' from the list for each image - beginning with IMG and ending /IMG (include all the square brackets [ ] ), and paste each link into your post. Each copied and pasted link will embed a thumbnail link in your post.

Using the attachment method is not advised as it means quickly running out of attachment space.

Redact/obscure pers name, address, PCN number and reg.mark.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.
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DancingDad
post Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 11:29
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QUOTE (golzii07 @ Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 11:15) *
..........Dear Serco
REf PCN ????
I received a parking ticket at 14:33 on Abinger Road on 13th November. I dispute the Traffic Warden's timing as according to my watch it was 14:30pm the correct time my parking ran out. Please supply sufficient evident that the machine was calibrated to the correct time.

Also on in 2015 a new law was passed to give motorists such as myself a 10 minute grace period to prevent PCNs being served within 10 minutes of expiry of lawful parking.

New government regulation and Department of Transport statutory guidance* say that any Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) issued before expiry of the 10-minute grace period would be illegal, unless the vehicle itself is parked unlawfully, such as when the motorist has not paid any required parking fee or displayed a parking ticket where required.

Your CEo photos show the permit in the vehicle and correctly filled out.
Please confirm cancellation of this PCN

Yours faithfully

Hope this is enough to determine whether I can challenge the 10 minute grace period.
Thanks


It works for me on the 10 minute grace period.
Suggested changes in red.
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Neil B
post Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 12:01
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QUOTE (golzii07 @ Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 11:15) *
The photos from the council are in the previous thread I posted along with the front of the parking ticket.

Previous thread?

The only one I can see is this
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=116949&hl=

Also re a VP but different issue, different date, no PCN or pics?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 14:37
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OP, post the full NTO, not just a snippet. Apart from anything else, it will show the date of issue from which we could calculate the latest date for submission of your reps.

As regards your draft reps:
Calibration - don't see the point in introducing this at all, let alone as your first argument. You should presume their timings are correct, after all an adj would on the basis of a simple decalaration from them, they would not be required to provide proof, unlike you, and you have none.

SoS Guidance
Makes no difference because the SoS cannot interfere with the law, and the law prevents them from issuing a PCN because no penalty is owing in the '10-minute period'. IMO, this is your argument and you should lead with it.

According to the authority's evidence in the form of photos, my permitted period of parking ended at ***.
The PCN was issued at **** which was less than 10 minutes after the time of contravention.
and therefore by virtue of regulation **** the authority were prevented from serving a PCN at this time and it must by law be cancelled.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 14:50
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 14:37) *
OP, post the full NTO, not just a snippet. Apart from anything else, it will show the date of issue from which we could calculate the latest date for submission of your reps.

As regards your draft reps:
Calibration - don't see the point in introducing this at all, let alone as your first argument. You should presume their timings are correct, after all an adj would on the basis of a simple decalaration from them, they would not be required to provide proof, unlike you, and you have none.

SoS Guidance
Makes no difference because the SoS cannot interfere with the law, and the law prevents them from issuing a PCN because no penalty is owing in the '10-minute period'. IMO, this is your argument and you should lead with it.

According to the authority's evidence in the form of photos, my permitted period of parking ended at ***.
The PCN was issued at **** which was less than 10 minutes after the time of contravention.
and therefore by virtue of regulation **** the authority were prevented from serving a PCN at this time and it must by law be cancelled.


Use the regs not the guidance

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/56...gulation/2/made
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